HDMI Questions

[TimC]

I have asked similar questions before, but the SSD issue was taking precedence in everyone's mind and I never managed to get satisfactory answers, so I will try again.

First, a curse upon the designers of HDMI that makes it able to preconfigure the HDMI output to suit the display that it is connected to. Its wonderfully smart, but also so problematic. More on that later.

Question one.
Why can't I see the same thing on both HDMI ports?
I have a fairly complex setup that could be simplified if both ports showed the same thing.
I also noted when I was using ubuntu to clone the SSD, that Ubuntu had a similar "Display" function to windows that allowed two displays (HDMI Ports 1 and 2) to be mirrored. Unfortunately choosing "Mirror" seems to revert the ports to their automatic settings. Just because I am using a 4K switch to send the HDMI output to a TV, doesen't mean that that TV is a 4K TV. I can see HDMI is the issue here, not the IceBox. I assume that if I had two 4K TVs connected to the ports, "Mirroring" may well would work fine, but I have little desire to replace my TVs, at the moment.

Is there somewhere in the IceBox software that can allow "mirroring" to be configured or possibly added as a capability in the future?

If Mirroring was a capability, what would happen to the sound?
i.e. would one port have sound and the other not?

Question 2
Is there some way to lock the HDMI output down?
With my complex setup, I find that my TVs are often blanking as the Splitters, Switches, extenders, etc. in the HDMI chain reconfigure themselves when they detect some change in the output.
One example is when I change from a Menu to a TV channel.  Another is when a menu is on display for a while and I then attempt to make a selection, the screen blanks for a bit before I can make a selection. Note I have dimming turned off. It seems that the screen actually changes something in the HDMI output when moving from a menu to a picture.

I don't get these types of issues with other PVRs, DVDs or Media servers in my setup.

Please don't point me to the LibreElec or Kodi forums, I have looked and to be honest I rarely understand what anyone says in them and I have little idea about what sort of NUC the IceBox is or what versions of LibreElec or Kodi software is running.

I suspect there are no current capabilities within the IceBox that will resolve my issues.
So far, the chief user of the IceBox in the house, being my wife, hasn't complained about the blanking, but that is probably coming.
 
I would also be interested to know if anyone else has similar issues.
I suspect it is not an issue for those that have just a TV connected to their IceBox.

[raymondjpg]

I've asked, but not yet seen answered, what hardware IceBox is based on, so have to speculate. If you could post the Hardware information here from the LibreELEC Kodi System info tab it would maybe give me a clue.

If it is NUC based, the only NUC I have seen that uses 2.5 inch drives exclusively was a 7th generation Gemini Lake PC. I had the Pentium Silver version, but I think that there was also a Celeron version that would have been adequate for LibreELEC, given the OS could be run on a Raspberry.

Despite its modest specifications and performance, it did at least sport a setting for full quantization (PC 0-255 RGB Output) under the Display tab of the Intel Graphics Command Center. However, like other later version NUCs I have, it fared best in terms of video output and stability if and when it properly identified the TV monitor it was connected to. Typically that would not be on bootup, but on waking from a sleep state.

There are three things I'd suggest, some of which I have commented on previously in his forum.

1. If there are two HDMI outputs on IceBox, use the one nearest to the power supply input. In my experience, and if it is indeed NUC based, that port is the most likely to deliver full quantization display output.

2. Ensure that all your equipment in the path from IceBox to TV display is powered up before powering on IceBox. I don't know if putting IceBox into a suspend state is equivalent to a Windows sleep state (it's probably worth trying) so identification on power up may be the only way it can properly detect display characteristics.

3. If IceBox has difficulty with 4K display devices consider putting a 2K HDMI switch (if there is such a thing) between IceBox abd the 4K switch.

As far as I can recall (I've passed my Gemini Lake NUC on) this NUC is capable of 4K output, but definitely not HDR. One of the major disappointments of this NUC which Intel originally advertised as HDR capable, but later claimed was never intended.

[prl]

4K display devices consider putting a 2K HDMI switch (if there is such a thing)

A "2K" switch would be a normal HD switch. HD is normally talked about as 1080 resolution, but that's vertical resolution. Its horizontal resolution is 1920, or "2K".

"4K" resolution is double the resolution of HD, 2160x3840, but to make it sound lots better than 1080, the marketers decided it should be called 4K after its horizontal resolution (which is, in fact, a bit short of 4k).

[TimC]

Thanks Raymond.

Please note. There is no criticism intended in the following. Its just me trying to parse the info you provided against what I have had happen on my IceBox.

If it is NUC based, the only NUC I have seen that uses 2.5 inch drives exclusively was a 7th generation Gemini Lake PC. I had the Pentium Silver version, but I think that there was also a Celeron version that would have been adequate for LibreELEC, given the OS could be run on a Raspberry.

An interesting guess. It would be nice if someone from IceTV could provide some info. This sort of point has come up many times in this forum. Perhaps they are concerned that someone could take a copy of their software and start selling Iceboxes, or worse put the software on a better NUC.  However, there isn't much to prevent that from happening anyway. One day I will find out what a Raspberry is. I didn't know what a NUC was until I bought the IceBox.

, it did at least sport a setting for full quantization (PC 0-255 RGB Output) under the Display tab of the Intel Graphics Command Center.

I take this to mean that this is what provides the HDMI Output.

1. If there are two HDMI outputs on IceBox, use the one nearest to the power supply input. In my experience, and if it is indeed NUC based, that port is the most likely to deliver full quantization display output.

So one port has different HDMI capabilities?
I am not convinced on this. I know at one stage early on I found that the working HDMI port switched from one port to the other. From what I have seen on other threads, I have the impression that the NUC directs the HDMI to the port it sees connected to a working HDMI sink (TV).  Early on I had a bit of fun having to change over the lead after a restart. I ended up connecting the second port directly to a spare port on the TV. That seemed to stabilise it. In any case the quality of the image didn't seem to change when the ports switched.
My guess is that IceTV have provided a set of specifications to a Chinese manufacturer and had one built to suit. Hence the SSD issue.

2. Ensure that all your equipment in the path from IceBox to TV display is powered up before powering on IceBox.

In my case, that stuff is pretty much always on.

3. If IceBox has difficulty with 4K display devices consider putting a 2K HDMI switch (if there is such a thing) between IceBox abd the 4K switch.

Again my curse on the HDMI designers. I can see your reasoning, i.e. getting the IceBox to think it is working with a 2K device may stop it from changing the output. These days it is pretty difficult to purchase anything that is not 4K. I might have an old 2K splitter floating around somewhere. It may take a while to get around to that though.

It would be nicer if there was a software solution though.

[raymondjpg]

It would be nice if someone from IceTV could provide some info.

If you could post the Hardware information from the LibreELEC Kodi System info tab that would likely help.

[TimC]

Ramond, Is this the Info you are Looking For.

[TimC]

This

[TimC]

this

[TimC]

or finally This

[raymondjpg]

Thanks. It was the processor information at the hardware tab I was looking for.

As I suspected the J4125 is a Gemini Lake Celeron variant, but not the same as the Celeron used in the Gemini Lake NUC which was J4005. Googling J4125 uncovered a "Jetway MU11 Series Intel Gemini Lake Celeron J4125 NUC" which looks to have the specifications of IceBox from what I've seen here.

Still speculation, but if the J4125 NUC variant is similar in specifications to the Intel NUC J4005 original, then you are probably right that the output is the same from both HDMI ports. With later NUCs HDR capability was achieved by directing DisplayPort output through at least one of the HDMI ports, I know because I wrangled with Intel about this over the 8th generation NUC I'm using for Icebox BYO. Outputs from both HDMI ports were demonstrably different.

Because the Gemini Lake NUC had no HDR capability, although it was speculated that the potential was there, there was no need for onboard DisplayPort to HDMI conversion, so output from both HDMI ports would be native HDMI. As I said I no longer have my Gemini Lake NUC so can't confirm if full quantization settings were available on both ports.

But let's say it is, then I don't see that it changes anything I suggested originally. You imply in your original post that what you see from the two HDMI ports is different, but later that you are not convinced that one port has different HDMI capabilities. I think the latter is more likely to be right, and if so then mirroring would be ineffective in resolving the HDMI issue.

Better perhaps to focus on how to get the port connected through to the TV working properly, perhaps with a 2K HDMI switch.

Alternatively, and probably a long shot, if the IceBox has a DisplayPort connector (the MU11 specifications have DP 4K @60Hz output) then try a DisplayPort to HDMI adapter and see if using the DisplayPort output has any beneficial effect on the behaviour of the IceBox display through the HDMI train.

[TimC]

You imply in your original post that what you see from the two HDMI ports is different, but later that you are not convinced that one port has different HDMI capabilities. I think the latter is more likely to be right, and if so then mirroring would be ineffective in resolving the HDMI issue.

While I can see that what I said looks contradictory, it actually isn't. It depends on how the ports are connected to devices.

My understanding is that if a single port is connected to a TV, then the IceBox directs the HDMI to that port on startup and effectively disables the other port.  Change to the other port and reboot and the HDMI goes to the second port (Most of the time).

I have seen both ports working with the same resolution, at least from what I could see of it. I am of the school that is not impressed by 4K or 8K resolutions. Technically they are definitely better, but I am just not convinced that our eyes are good enough to see the difference. The only reason I gravitate to 2K over SD is for the 7.1 Ch sound that goes with it.

I my current setup, I have connected the second port directly to a spare HDMI port on the TV.
The result is interesting, in that on startup, the second port shows the IceTV logo for a while and then goes black. Switching back to the Main HDMI port on the TV shows the picture.
From this behaviour I have reasoned that the two ports work a bit like having two side by side monitors on a PC.
When I was doing the SSD cloning using Ubuntu, that was pretty much proven. I could set the outputs to "Mirror". Unfortunately, it didn't really work as it appeared to change one of the ports to 4K in the process which was more than my TV could handle.

Your suggestion of connecting the main port to a 2K device and then passing through to the 4K switch may improve things.  Equally it may not, as the IceBox should know the resolution of the display device it is connected to by the devices in the chain passing the info back to the Icebox port.  I just have to find the old splitter I have to try it out.

Again, I am not certain that will work, as the reason I abandoned the old splitter in the first place, was that after a few years use, it began doing the Flashing on and off thing. Either something in my Fetch box changed or the device was on the way out (I suspect the former as it started after a software update).

I intend to try it, but it is in a box somewhere, and I can't remember where the box is.

[raymondjpg]

...the IceBox should know the resolution of the display device it is connected to by the devices in the chain passing the info back to the Icebox port.

Have you tried putting the IceBox on Standby then waking it after all HDMI switches and TV have been powered on? If it's anything like my NUCs running Windows that's the best way to have them properly detect the display device.

[TimC]

By putting the device on Standby and waking it, I assume you mean press the power button and select Suspend, but how can you wake it up from a suspension?
My understanding is that once the IceBox is in Suspension, you can't wake it up.
i.e. the Wake on Lan/USB function doesn't work on the IceBox. All you can do is remove power and restart it which negates the suspension. There is a thread somewhere devoted to the subject.

In any case, I have rebooted it when everything else is turned on several times and haven't noticed anything different.
The only difference I have noted was when the working port swapped over. That happened on a reboot, which suggests that the Ports reconfigure on startup.

Your thoughts on the 2K device before the 4K switch have some promise in the triggering of settings changes in the HDMI device chain and I will get to that when the opportunity arises, however I admit I lack confidence it will make a difference.

The reality is that there are a bunch of automatic processes that control the HDMI devices. Some may be in in the Kodi/LibreElec software side of things, but I suspect there may also be some in the IceBox hardware the HDMI ports connect to as well.

I don't think there is currently anything configurable in the Icebox software that can force these automatic processes to stop making configuration changes on the fly. However, I do note that run of the mill PVRs don't have this issue. I had a similar setup for my Skippas and Toppys and the HDMI was stable (except when switching from one device to another). It's just the IceBox that does it every time you change something.   

By starting this thread, I was hoping to get some discussion going about why this happens on the IceBox and not on standard PVRs, with the view of getting some of the IceTv experts looking for a way to resolve the issue.

Its relatively minor in the scheme of things, but I do find it annoying. I wish I had a better understanding of how HDMI fits together. It's a bit difficult to work out when there are so many automatic things going on the different devices in the HDMI chain.

[raymondjpg]

My understanding is that once the IceBox is in Suspension, you can't wake it up.
i.e. the Wake on Lan/USB function doesn't work on the IceBox. All you can do is remove power and restart it which negates the suspension. There is a thread somewhere devoted to the subject.

According to this post https://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=7829.msg40543#msg40543 pressing the power button on IceBox should wake from suspend mode. If that is the case, it would definitely be worth trying because I know from experience running NUCs with Windows and modern standby that resume from standby connected gives much better detection of the display device than when first booted up.

If pressing the power button does work to wake IceBox from suspend, or even if it doesn't, I'd be looking to find some other way to wake from suspend either through the remote control device or maybe even through some network jog. We have had the discussion over Flircs. In my case, with modern standby, I can trigger standby with the wake/suspend key in the Computer Media Keys Controller and wake with a double press of any one of the coded arrow keys. Worth some experimentation I think. Waking from a LAN signal might be more problematic, and maybe worth a look in the LibeELEC forum some time.

Other than that I am out of ideas.

I suspect IceBox may not have a DisplayPort outlet. Could you confirm?

[TimC]

There is no DisplayPort Outlet