Windows 7 EPG Beta Readme: 09/07/2009

Started by Russell at IceTV, July 09, 2009, 10:38:20 AM

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hamping

#15
Quote
Yes, I am, as well as the ability to add logo's to the guide grid.  It is possible for IceTV to add images and guide logos, however that might throw up various copyright issues so it'd be something that their lawyers would need to consider.

IF Big Screen can do it, presumably ICE Tv can too.., but then Big Screen hasn't been to the high court on a copyright case yet!

b.t.w, the the Geo code hack hasn't resulted in any AMG data popping up for me. Is there anything else to do other than that. Do you need to install MC after changing the value, or can you simply rely on mcupdate.exe -uf ?

NiallG

Quote from: hamping on July 12, 2009, 10:52:13 PM
Yes, I am, as well as the ability to add logo's to the guide grid.  It is possible for IceTV to add images and guide logos, however that might throw up various copyright issues so it'd be something that their lawyers would need to consider.
IF Big Screen can do it, presumably ICE Tv can too.., but then Big Screen hasn't been to the high court on a copyright case yet!
b.t.w, the the Geo code hack hasn't resulted in any AMG data popping up for me. Is there anything else to do other than that. Do you need to install MC after changing the value, or can you simply rely on mcupdate.exe -uf ?
there's no 'yet' about it... "big screen epg" (or any other big screen product) doesn't sell, infringe on (or give away) anyone else's copyrighted material. Also there's lots of additional code and smarts in big screen epg to fix up and enhance bad/incomplete epg data (being able to view the proper movie metadata is just one of these benefits) - and gives you control over the full set of features in win7 media center epg (beware of cheap AND expensive imitations)..  ;)

Russell at IceTV

Quote from: dgaust on July 12, 2009, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: asummerf on July 12, 2009, 06:54:41 PM
There seems to be a problem with series finales.  For example next weeks castle, I have a series recording setup which is recording tonights episode quite happily and not matching the next weeks final episode.  Only thing that I can think of is the title change, normal episode called "Castle" and next week it is "Castle - Season Finale".

Sounds like it's EIT data mixed in. That's something the broadcasters do, IceTV wouldn't change the title of the show for a finale because it would screw up season recordings.

Yes, that's right, it sounds like the over-the-air EIT guide data mixed in.  I just checked, and we only have one series called Castle, and the finale has the same name, with the episode "A Death in the Family".

You might want to disable the EIT data on your IceTV channels.  I just now added this tip to the first Windows 7 EPG Beta Readme post at the top of this board:

Tip: Disable EIT guide data
Once you get the IceTV guide data working, you won't need (or want) the limited guide data that's sent over the air with digital channels.  Here's how to disable it:


  • Go to Tasks / Settings / TV / Guide / Edit Channels.
  • Click one of the channel names that you've enabled with a check mark (for example: ABC1-IceTV).
  • Click "Edit Listings", and then click "Disable Inband".  Then click Save, and then Save again, to take you back to the Edit Channels page.
  • Repeat for each enabled IceTV channel, then click Save on the Edit Channels page when done.


muzzakus

Tell us more about this Big Screen EPG.  Is this the ultimate EPG solution and a should be incorporated into the mix to get most out of the MCE configs ?

Quote from: NiallG on July 13, 2009, 02:02:28 AM
Quote from: hamping on July 12, 2009, 10:52:13 PM
Yes, I am, as well as the ability to add logo's to the guide grid.  It is possible for IceTV to add images and guide logos, however that might throw up various copyright issues so it'd be something that their lawyers would need to consider.
IF Big Screen can do it, presumably ICE Tv can too.., but then Big Screen hasn't been to the high court on a copyright case yet!
b.t.w, the the Geo code hack hasn't resulted in any AMG data popping up for me. Is there anything else to do other than that. Do you need to install MC after changing the value, or can you simply rely on mcupdate.exe -uf ?
there's no 'yet' about it... "big screen epg" (or any other big screen product) doesn't sell, infringe on (or give away) anyone else's copyrighted material. Also there's lots of additional code and smarts in big screen epg to fix up and enhance bad/incomplete epg data (being able to view the proper movie metadata is just one of these benefits) - and gives you control over the full set of features in win7 media center epg (beware of cheap AND expensive imitations)..  ;)


hamping

Quote from: muzzakus on July 13, 2009, 06:32:54 PM
Tell us more about this Big Screen EPG.  Is this the ultimate EPG solution and a should be incorporated into the mix to get most out of the MCE configs ?



See the thread here: http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/big-screen-software/37329-big-screen-epg-v0-4-discussion-support-thread-14.html

It's beta software.  Seems from the post above that ICE Tv can, subject to any legal issue, provide a lot of the full meta-data smarts in its native feed to WIN 7 - if they want to. Its just a question of implementation.

Big Screen would be essential if you were trying to process feeds from hundreds of disparate sources and needed to organise all that information. But ICE Tv only has to deal with a few Free To Air stations in Aus, so they should easily be able to apply all relevant data for WIN 7 directly into their feeds....most of it is already there as far as I can see...


NiallG

Quote from: hamping on July 14, 2009, 12:04:15 AM
Quote from: muzzakus on July 13, 2009, 06:32:54 PM
Tell us more about this Big Screen EPG.  Is this the ultimate EPG solution and a should be incorporated into the mix to get most out of the MCE configs ?

See the thread here: http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/big-screen-software/37329-big-screen-epg-v0-4-discussion-support-thread-14.html

It's beta software.  Seems from the post above that ICE Tv can, subject to any legal issue, provide a lot of the full meta-data smarts in its native feed to WIN 7 - if they want to. Its just a question of implementation.

Big Screen would be essential if you were trying to process feeds from hundreds of disparate sources and needed to organise all that information. But ICE Tv only has to deal with a few Free To Air stations in Aus, so they should easily be able to apply all relevant data for WIN 7 directly into their feeds....most of it is already there as far as I can see...


Hi to try and answer those q's above :

Everything to do with Windows 7 / EPG is regarded as 'Beta' software because Windows 7 itself is still in beta (and may change at any point up until RTM release). Also - the importing of EPG's itself is not a 'supported' or 'guaranteed to work' scenario by Microsoft (and the disclaimers on the technical docs released by Microsoft emphasize this) - so this always invokes uncertainty - and "beta" and "use at own risk" type statements are made by all concerned.

In terms of bse vs icetv's win7 solution (not their standalone xmltv feed) - my take is that BSE is designed to work 'with', 'enhance' and 'fix' data from IceTV XMLTV feed (not the ictv win7/mxf feed) - as well as other sources. It should be used 'with' the epg provider: ie. I'm not trying to 'replace' icetv, oztivo or any elses core business of supplying the epg data (and this is why when you setup BSE there's a quick configuration option and presets for icetv xmltv feeds) - nor am I trying to replace or compete with any XMLTV Downloader products (such as the one provided by epgstream).

The architectural difference between the two solutions (again referring to icetv's win7 solution - not their raw xmltv feed) - is that BSE is a locally installed application (with it's own Windows User Interface) - that does the processing of downloaded data locally - and provides the end user a lot of configuration options - giving you power to do stuff like import channel logo's etc. For example - I don't provide any actual channel logo files - but instead give you the ability to assign channel logos to epg channels as part of the processing (if you've downloaded these logos from somewhere - or created them yourself). Also - when bse detects common metadata issues in the XMLTV (such as the ones preventing AMG Movie data etc appearing) - it will proactively fix these problems up when it runs. As the BSE product is updated very regularly - with new versions appearing quite often (and often within days/hours of a problem being raised) - then you again can benefit from that control over the processing and imported data.  Because it isn't being done all online (and locked in) - user controlled deployment of bse products updates can be pushed out a lot more easily at user discretion. (ie. icetv needs to be 100% sure of ramifications before they can change anything their feed as it will instantly impact every single user without end user being able to choose this).

In the case of the icetv win7 solution - they do all the processing at their end - and give you the final mxf file to import (so there's no configuration points for you - other than nominating your state/channels online). This works to a point (if they are getting the data 100% correct and providing all the metadata you want - neither I believe is the case right atm) - but if there's an issue (ie. unique episode problems for series recordings) - or a copyright/ip issue with supplying some metadata (as is providing actual channel logos) - you can't do anything about it until they sort the problem on their servers. While I'm sure some of these problems will get sorted over time - generally I've noticed an extremely long lead time to get things fixed up at icetv (due to many reasons such as the way they collect/enter/store and distribute their data).

Both solutions (bse and icetv) are also heading towards providing additional features in the realms of remote web and mobile phone based recording for Windows 7 (as is Microsoft themselves via Live Mesh and Web Guide ) - so the functionality offered there is also a differentiating factor. (I've made some announcements / blog posts already on what I'm intending with BSE - not sure where anyone else is with their solution)

Hope that helps answer those questions.   :)

Also - without meaning to hijack this thread or use it as a soapbox to spruik BSE - it would be good to actually get some co-operation from icetv with their xmltv (and other metadata). So far they have been pretty much unresponsive and difficult with issues relating to integrating their feeds into BSE / 7MC - and I've had to sort out 99% of icetv metadata related issues on my end (which is a bit frustrating seeing as I'm fully encouraging users to still use their epg service and trying to enhance that experience). In fact - quite ironically the only correspondance I have received from icetv in past few months is that latest 'refer a friend' bulk email which started with the line 'As a small Aussie company in a land of media giants, we often get pushed around and are overshadowed by the bigger boys as most people know. '....  ??? ???

Anyhow - if you've got any q's about Big Screen EPG etc - please visit the abovementioned threads for more. If you want to use both products together - and you want to help make that experience as nice and workable as possible - then please contact icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall




muzzakus

Quote from: NiallG on July 14, 2009, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: hamping on July 14, 2009, 12:04:15 AM
Quote from: muzzakus on July 13, 2009, 06:32:54 PM
Tell us more about this Big Screen EPG.  Is this the ultimate EPG solution and a should be incorporated into the mix to get most out of the MCE configs ?

See the thread here: http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/big-screen-software/37329-big-screen-epg-v0-4-discussion-support-thread-14.html

It's beta software.  Seems from the post above that ICE Tv can, subject to any legal issue, provide a lot of the full meta-data smarts in its native feed to WIN 7 - if they want to. Its just a question of implementation.

Big Screen would be essential if you were trying to process feeds from hundreds of disparate sources and needed to organise all that information. But ICE Tv only has to deal with a few Free To Air stations in Aus, so they should easily be able to apply all relevant data for WIN 7 directly into their feeds....most of it is already there as far as I can see...


Hi to try and answer those q's above :

Everything to do with Windows 7 / EPG is regarded as 'Beta' software because Windows 7 itself is still in beta (and may change
...
...
...
icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall



This sounds totally awesome.  Don't have time to to read the Beta thread so I'll be one of those gys that comes out and shoots without doing their homework....


I'm happy to pay for quality EPG data with ICE.  The Q is, Can Big Screen EPG software directly download the xml directly from ICE at scheduled intervals with my credentials, and do it's fixing and enchncing all in the one integrated cycle.  This would be the ideal no?   Why double handle the process with multiple layers if not needed.



hamping

Quote from: muzzakus on July 14, 2009, 04:19:50 PM
Quote from: NiallG on July 14, 2009, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: hamping on July 14, 2009, 12:04:15 AM
Quote from: muzzakus on July 13, 2009, 06:32:54 PM
Tell us more about this Big Screen EPG.  Is this the ultimate EPG solution and a should be incorporated into the mix to get most out of the MCE configs ?

See the thread here: http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/big-screen-software/37329-big-screen-epg-v0-4-discussion-support-thread-14.html

It's beta software.  Seems from the post above that ICE Tv can, subject to any legal issue, provide a lot of the full meta-data smarts in its native feed to WIN 7 - if they want to. Its just a question of implementation.

Big Screen would be essential if you were trying to process feeds from hundreds of disparate sources and needed to organise all that information. But ICE Tv only has to deal with a few Free To Air stations in Aus, so they should easily be able to apply all relevant data for WIN 7 directly into their feeds....most of it is already there as far as I can see...


Hi to try and answer those q's above :

Everything to do with Windows 7 / EPG is regarded as 'Beta' software because Windows 7 itself is still in beta (and may change
...
...
...
icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall



This sounds totally awesome.  Don't have time to to read the Beta thread so I'll be one of those gys that comes out and shoots without doing their homework....


I'm happy to pay for quality EPG data with ICE.  The Q is, Can Big Screen EPG software directly download the xml directly from ICE at scheduled intervals with my credentials, and do it's fixing and enchncing all in the one integrated cycle.  This would be the ideal no?   Why double handle the process with multiple layers if not needed.




Yes, that is precisely what it does.

Freefall

Quote from: Russell at IceTV on July 13, 2009, 06:34:22 AM
Quote from: dgaust on July 12, 2009, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: asummerf on July 12, 2009, 06:54:41 PM
There seems to be a problem with series finales.  For example next weeks castle, I have a series recording setup which is recording tonights episode quite happily and not matching the next weeks final episode.  Only thing that I can think of is the title change, normal episode called "Castle" and next week it is "Castle - Season Finale".

Sounds like it's EIT data mixed in. That's something the broadcasters do, IceTV wouldn't change the title of the show for a finale because it would screw up season recordings.

Yes, that's right, it sounds like the over-the-air EIT guide data mixed in.  I just checked, and we only have one series called Castle, and the finale has the same name, with the episode "A Death in the Family".

You might want to disable the EIT data on your IceTV channels.  I just now added this tip to the first Windows 7 EPG Beta Readme post at the top of this board:

Tip: Disable EIT guide data
Once you get the IceTV guide data working, you won't need (or want) the limited guide data that's sent over the air with digital channels.  Here's how to disable it:


  • Go to Tasks / Settings / TV / Guide / Edit Channels.
  • Click one of the channel names that you've enabled with a check mark (for example: ABC1-IceTV).
  • Click "Edit Listings", and then click "Disable Inband".  Then click Save, and then Save again, to take you back to the Edit Channels page.
  • Repeat for each enabled IceTV channel, then click Save on the Edit Channels page when done.



I'm getting what looks like mixed guide data in my listings too, but only for Win TV Canberra and Win TV HD.  I've disabled the inband listings for all my channels and re-run the script to download the IceTV guide data but am still getting some entries that look like they come from the EIT.  For example, tonight at 7:30 in Canberra on Win TV the Harry Potter movie is displayed as "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban -Rpt" whereas on the Ice TV site it says "MOVIE: Harry Potter & The Prisoner of Azkaban (2004)".

hamping

#24
Quote from: Freefall on July 14, 2009, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: Russell at IceTV on July 13, 2009, 06:34:22 AM
Quote from: dgaust on July 12, 2009, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: asummerf on July 12, 2009, 06:54:41 PM
There seems to be a problem with series finales.  For example next weeks castle, I have a series recording setup which is recording tonights episode quite happily and not matching the next weeks final episode.  Only thing that I can think of is the title change, normal episode called "Castle" and next week it is "Castle - Season Finale".

Sounds like it's EIT data mixed in. That's something the broadcasters do, IceTV wouldn't change the title of the show for a finale because it would screw up season recordings.

Yes, that's right, it sounds like the over-the-air EIT guide data mixed in.  I just checked, and we only have one series called Castle, and the finale has the same name, with the episode "A Death in the Family".

You might want to disable the EIT data on your IceTV channels.  I just now added this tip to the first Windows 7 EPG Beta Readme post at the top of this board:

Tip: Disable EIT guide data
Once you get the IceTV guide data working, you won't need (or want) the limited guide data that's sent over the air with digital channels.  Here's how to disable it:


  • Go to Tasks / Settings / TV / Guide / Edit Channels.
  • Click one of the channel names that you've enabled with a check mark (for example: ABC1-IceTV).
  • Click "Edit Listings", and then click "Disable Inband".  Then click Save, and then Save again, to take you back to the Edit Channels page.
  • Repeat for each enabled IceTV channel, then click Save on the Edit Channels page when done.



I'm getting what looks like mixed guide data in my listings too, but only for Win TV Canberra and Win TV HD.  I've disabled the inband listings for all my channels and re-run the script to download the IceTV guide data but am still getting some entries that look like they come from the EIT.  For example, tonight at 7:30 in Canberra on Win TV the Harry Potter movie is displayed as "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban -Rpt" whereas on the Ice TV site it says "MOVIE: Harry Potter & The Prisoner of Azkaban (2004)".


I had this problem on RC 7100 x64 when I installed having only deleted the .db file mentioned in my first post above. Once I repeated the procedure using the full MCE reset, I don't think I have had any EIT data coming back. So I can only suggest that you might need to do a full reset (once again)....

hamping

Quote from: NiallG on July 14, 2009, 12:23:39 PM

Anyhow - if you've got any q's about Big Screen EPG etc - please visit the abovementioned threads for more. If you want to use both products together - and you want to help make that experience as nice and workable as possible - then please contact icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall


Niall, I think that the program you have written is great but probably too hard for most non-tech/time poor users. However, my view is that if you have subscribed to the data from ICE Tv and ICE Tv support windows 7, then they should support a native feed that already has all relevant meta data in the right format for Win 7. If they ultimately don't do this, they will lose subscribers.

Russell at IceTV

Quote from: Freefall on July 14, 2009, 05:44:35 PM
I've disabled the inband listings for all my channels and re-run the script to download the IceTV guide data but am still getting some entries that look like they come from the EIT.

It's been my experience that Win7's Media Center seems to hold onto data for a while, so you might have to wait a few days for the schedule to use up all the EIT data that's already been downloaded.  XP and Vista seemed to just overwrite the data with whatever we sent it, but Win7 has a different system.  Of course, you could do a full reset like hamping suggested also, and just be sure to disable inband on all the channels just after you finish the initial setup and channel scan.

Russell

NiallG

Quote from: hamping on July 14, 2009, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: NiallG on July 14, 2009, 12:23:39 PM

Anyhow - if you've got any q's about Big Screen EPG etc - please visit the abovementioned threads for more. If you want to use both products together - and you want to help make that experience as nice and workable as possible - then please contact icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall


Niall, I think that the program you have written is great but probably too hard for most non-tech/time poor users. However, my view is that if you have subscribed to the data from ICE Tv and ICE Tv support windows 7, then they should support a native feed that already has all relevant meta data in the right format for Win 7. If they ultimately don't do this, they will lose subscribers.

From my understanding - icetv won't be able to offer 100% of the metadata required at any point for windows 7 (even when they do fix up the metadata 'issues' in current implementation).   

The solution I offer is actually very simple and quick for a non-technical user to get going (and actually a lot simpler then the process required to get the icetv win7 solution going - which looks very technical atm once 'all' the required steps are taken). For Big Screen EPG installation/configuration - there's currently a couple of 'enhancement' steps in there (which aren't 100% necessary) which require some user interaction - and it's all these steps that could be completely eliminated if there was some co-operation from icetv (and make the installation of big screen epg for icetv a complete no brainer - with no configuration steps required at all except for user supplying their icetv username/password).  Anyhow you'd probably need to have a look at v0.4x of my product (and set it up for icetv) to understand what I'm getting at here. (and use your imagination on what a 'big screen epg for icetv' installer might look like - if I had some agreed integration points with their service).


hamping

Quote from: NiallG on July 15, 2009, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: hamping on July 14, 2009, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: NiallG on July 14, 2009, 12:23:39 PM

Anyhow - if you've got any q's about Big Screen EPG etc - please visit the abovementioned threads for more. If you want to use both products together - and you want to help make that experience as nice and workable as possible - then please contact icetv and tell them so (and hopefully encourage them to actually answer/follow up my emails to them over past few months).

cheers
Niall


Niall, I think that the program you have written is great but probably too hard for most non-tech/time poor users. However, my view is that if you have subscribed to the data from ICE Tv and ICE Tv support windows 7, then they should support a native feed that already has all relevant meta data in the right format for Win 7. If they ultimately don't do this, they will lose subscribers.

From my understanding - icetv won't be able to offer 100% of the metadata required at any point for windows 7 (even when they do fix up the metadata 'issues' in current implementation).   

The solution I offer is actually very simple and quick for a non-technical user to get going (and actually a lot simpler then the process required to get the icetv win7 solution going - which looks very technical atm once 'all' the required steps are taken). For Big Screen EPG installation/configuration - there's currently a couple of 'enhancement' steps in there (which aren't 100% necessary) which require some user interaction - and it's all these steps that could be completely eliminated if there was some co-operation from icetv (and make the installation of big screen epg for icetv a complete no brainer - with no configuration steps required at all except for user supplying their icetv username/password).  Anyhow you'd probably need to have a look at v0.4x of my product (and set it up for icetv) to understand what I'm getting at here. (and use your imagination on what a 'big screen epg for icetv' installer might look like - if I had some agreed integration points with their service).



Niall, what data do you think that ICE TV will not be able to include?

NiallG

Quote from: hamping on July 15, 2009, 12:30:46 PM
Niall, what data do you think that ICE TV will not be able to include?
I doubt you will ever even get to see the channel logos from icetv (given the relationship between icetv and the "big boys") - and as for providing a list of the other '11 secret herbs and spices' - no thanks.....  ;D..