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PIMP is a web based service. PIMP clients communicate with the server by using HTTP POST requests.

Hi Peter. A copy of what I posted on the Toppy forum below:

peteru wrote:
That's not how PIMP works. There's a PIMP server at IceTV that provides the PIMP web service. It integrates with all sorts of databases as well as the web interface and mobile phone interface.

The client runs on the PVR (in the case of PVRs that are more sophisticated than the Toppy) or on a device attached to the PVR, that acts as a PIMP controller for the "dumb" PVR. The Toppy qualifies as a dumb PVR - i.e. a PVR that needs to be managed by a device that can connect to a webserver.

The PIMP architecture is a polled model. It's the responsibility of the PIMP client to contact the PIMP server on a regular basis. The PIMP server can not contact a PIMP client for a number of reasons - the most obvious being NAT/firewalls.

The missing link in the "PIMP for Toppy" equation is an implementation of a PIMP client that speaks to the PIMP server and translates the various commands to something that can be used by the Toppy.

This is how I envisaged it to be - the Toppy, or ICEBOX2 has to ask the PIMP server for updates to the timers in the Toppy. This would be very similar to the way it now asks for a daily update/download of the EPG.

In its simplest, almost "dumb" form, this would mean that you would do all your timer settings on the PIMP server, and it would then send these to the Toppy via the ICEBOX2 at the request of the Toppy/ICEBOX2. It would mean that the PIMP server would have no knowledge of existing timers on the Toppy, and could thus easily overide existing timers.

A second, more sophisticated form would be for the Toppy to send its current timer info up to the PIMP server first. The PIMP server would then digest this and resolve any conflicts that could arise. It would of course also allow the end user sitting in his internet caffe to see what is going on and let him/her decide how to resolve timer conflicts.

But, this requires an UPLOAD of info from the Toppy to the PIMP server - probably a good deal more difficult than the current situation where the Toppy simply requests data from the EPG server.

As a first round, I would suggest that we keep it simple and simply go for the first option. That shouldn't place an enormous burden on the ASUS router limted ROM space as it would involve no more than a second request for data. As I suggested in an earlier post, it could in fact be tagged onto the current EPG request.

The current ICE EPGUploader TAP would need to be modified so that it can read the timers. Tony's EPGUploader can already do this, so that code could be written into the Ice Uploader. Tony has already kindly offered to help with this task.

Yes, that means a once only daily timer and EPG upload - not the kind of service some want where you have a connection to your Toppy at a moments notice. And, timer conflicts would not be resolved either. However, if you were to manage all your timers via the PIMP server, you'd be in complete control, anywhere in the world.

And, if you set your Toppy's EPG/PIMP download time to say around 4pm, you wouldn't miss out on any shows that'd be on that night. It's only when you start to put in timers locally that you would run into strive.

However, if you're sitting at your PC (which is connected to the ICEBOX2 via your router), you could simply request an EPG/PIMP download at any time which is exactly what you can do now.

Over to you guys now for some more brain storming.
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And, as a comment more directly couched at ICETV, I would have thought that if it was important enough or sufficiently commercially viable to produce an ICEBOX specifically for the Topfields, why not go that extra little step and add at least a limited PIMP to it.

Unfortunately it’s not so simple to PIMP a Toppy. The Toppy is not connected to the internet even when used with the WiFi router. The intelligence needs to be provided in the router itself which means writing the code within the restrictions of that small embedded device.

Then the router needs to communicate with the Toppy via file transfers since the private message USB protocol API does not work (Toppy bugs).

So what seems like a straightforward task rapidly blows into many hundreds of hours of engineering time which takes a lot of subscribers to fund, at the $3 per week we get in return.

Of course we are doing all we can to find a commercially viable solution, maybe by cooperating with the open-source community.  Stay tuned.

Peter Vogel
CTO IceTV

Peter,

I've just re-read this post and I think I need a bit more education.

At the moment, I can get timer info in and out of the Toppy using the IceBox2 as the connection device between it and my PC via my router. For example, Trappers TED can read and set times, read and copy data files and set the TURBO command, all via FTP. So it would seem that the protocols to do these functions is already in place. What am I missing here?

Phil.

Thanks Peter. As seems nearly always the case these days, there's more to it then meets the eye. Let me know when the time comes to grab me as your first guinea pig. ;D

Hi Shane,

I've been posting a bit in the Topfield PIMP thread, but reading your post here I have a suggestion that will perhaps get around the 24/7 ON requirement.

In the case of my Toppy, which I have directly connected to the net via the IceBox2, I have suggested in one of my posts that the timer info could perhaps be slotted in at the same time as the user has set his IceBox up to get the EPG from the Ice Server. For example in my case, I have set the time to get the EPG at 2.15pm, during a half hour of a non-recording timer on the Toppy between 2 and 2.30pm.

Now I normally don't have any recordings set for daytime, so the Toppy is in standby except for that half hour. But, I have noticed, that if the Toppy isn't ON at the time you have the upload of the EPG set, the IceBox2 will actually cue the transmission to the Toppy and continually retry, firstly every 1/2 hr from memory, and then hourly, until it finally gets it into your Toppy when it's powered up.

So, even if the Toppy is OFF at the time the upload of the EPG, it will get it eventually. If the PIMP commands could likewise be cued, it wouldn't matter when the Toppy came ON, as long as of course it would come on before the updated or new timer was to kick in.

Not sure how this would work on a PC based PVR, but the above might be some food for thought.

Phil.

Just a note to confirm that we are reading this thread and considering how best to proceed. We chose the MCE and EyeTV to PIMP initially as these are easy to program and are internet connected. As you know, the Topfield is hard to program and not connected to the net   :(

I'll let you know what we come up with after internal discussions.

Sorry I can't be more definite...

Peter

Thanks for replying Peter.

But, isn't the Topfield connected directly to the internet via IceBox2? That's how mine is set up - no PC in the link - straight from the Icebox2 (which is connected to the Toppy via USB of course) into my ADSL router onto the internet. As for being hard to program, there's already a lot of talent out there and Dave has already begun to set the wheels in motion by getting in contact with you re commands needed to have PIMP communicate with the IceBox re timers etc.

See about halfway up this http://www.topfield-australia.com.au/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=75429#75429 page.

Hope this will help you in deciding to make the Toppy PIMP enabled as a matter of priority. I've certainly lauded the capabilities of PIMP in the above thread, and no, I don't have any shares in IceTV. The more painlessly IceTV can be connected up to PVRs and the more it can be made to work with a minimum of fuss and user intervention, the greater the uptake surely. Having it connected directly to the internet without having to pass control through a PC for daily EPG downloading makes it far easier and more reliable - I can certainly attest to that having had it setup that way since having had the IceBox2 over the past 6 months or so. Using PIMP to set timers remotely from anywhere in the world, and having PIMP look after the setting up (and correcting) of timers for Favourite programs gives the user ultimate control and piece of mind. (Am I writing an add for IceTV here??  ;D). For every day and local timer setting I use the Just EPG Tap - a great improvement over the Toppy's in-built EPG Guide and Timer setting programs.

Anyway, to come back to the issue at hand, I think with the close co-operation of some of the Toppy gurus (and some are very willing), it should not take up too much of your resources to get it going. Bear in mind too, that the work put into this will or should be almost totally portable to the new TF5600 wireless Toppy.

Again, thanks for your participation - it is very much appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil.

Addendum:

Sorry for this addendum which is a copy of what I posted in another PIMP thread, but for the sake of convenience and relevance to this post, here it is

Hi Shane,

I've been posting a bit in the Topfield PIMP thread, but reading your post here I have a suggestion that will perhaps get around the 24/7 ON requirement.

In the case of my Toppy, which I have directly connected to the net via the IceBox2, I have suggested in one of my posts that the timer info could perhaps be slotted in at the same time as the user has set his IceBox up to get the EPG from the Ice Server. For example in my case, I have set the time to get the EPG at 2.15pm, during a half hour of a non-recording timer on the Toppy between 2 and 2.30pm.

Now I normally don't have any recordings set for daytime, so the Toppy is in standby except for that half hour. But, I have noticed, that if the Toppy isn't ON at the time you have the upload of the EPG set, the IceBox2 will actually cue the transmission to the Toppy and continually retry, firstly every 1/2 hr from memory, and then hourly, until it finally gets it into your Toppy when it's powered up.

So, even if the Toppy is OFF at the time the upload of the EPG, it will get it eventually. If the PIMP commands could likewise be cued, it wouldn't matter when the Toppy came ON, as long as of course it would come on before the updated or new timer was to kick in.

Not sure how this would work on a PC based PVR, but the above might be some food for thought.

Thanks Paul. Have caught up with the Toppy forum now.

IceTV, I'm dissapointed. I understood from earlier posts/conversations some months ago that PIMP was going to support the Topfield PVRs as a matter of priority. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that the bulk of IceTV subscribers are in fact Topfield PVR owners. If not, I would imagine that many more will be in the near future as broadcasters are making it more and more difficult for grabbers to function.

If the bulk of IceTV subscribers are indeed TF PVR owners, shouldn't they be the first group to be looked after? The means of direct communication with the Topfield PVRs is already well established and proven with the IceBox2. Even if it meant that initial PIMP service would only be provided to IceBox2 owners, that would be a good start.

I would be delighted to hear comments/input from Peter Vogel or Daniel.

Phil.

PeterV or Daniel - any comments?

Hi guys,

I've been away for the last 5 weeks, so may have missed out on the good oil. What is the news for having PIMP available for the Topfield PVR's - especially via direct web connection, i.e just like I'm currently downloading the ICE guide directly to the Toppy via the IceBox2 (not via a PC)? I read in other related threads that 4 hour updates are possible with soft padding. That implies that ICE will update your recording times for a selected program on a 4 hourly basis (if necessary). Have I got that right? I also take it that PIMP will allow for dual timer setting for the TF5000 series PVRs, and resolve timer conflicts as well?

Phil.

Btw Daniel, my ICE-Netgear and another user's ICE-Asus router's are showing DS time still.

And still out now, 3pm.
What's happened to the forum's time stamp btw, it's also way out.

Phil.