Messages

[1]

Two months ago I posted an open call for anyone who really wants native support for the Topfield to email support@icetv.com.au so that I could present a business case to management to do the loader, in the same post I pledged to support any developer who was prepared to do the job that we are not currently able to do.... In two months we have received exactly 1 email. If I went to my boss and told him that it appears that the Mac using Topfield community consists of less then half a dozen people and that I would like to commit 2-3 man weeks of time to writing a loader, well, you can imagine the response...

Err... was I the solitary email?  Cause I forgot whether I emailed you or not. ;)

Just remember that old business saying though, that for every complaint you actually receive, there are at least another 9 that you never hear of.  I can remember off the top of my head at least 4 or 5 users on this forum who have posted about the Mac/Toppy thing.  Expecting your market research to be done for you by your target market is a bit of an ambitious way of going about things. :)

In all seriousness, if you're not going to do your own market research on this, there probably needs to be a bit of faith-based, "if we build it they will come" mentality going on at Ice.  Otherwise I think you miss Rod's point about the growing, high-spending, tech-savvy Mac market out there.  This is complete speculation, but I see a correlation between the type of people who buy Topfields, and the type of people who are converting to Macs (primarily from a Unix backgorund, like myself.)  You have no idea of how many tens or possibly hundreds of subscriptions you've missed out on from Mac/Toppy people who did their research, found out they can't use Ice properly with their setup, and then decided they'd just keep the pain of using the free solutions out there.  After all, currently for Mac/Toppy users, the pain of using Ice is only slightly better than the pain of the free solutions.  Or they just silently grumbled and pull out an old Windows based laptop every now and then to do their updates.  Expecting these people to email you is a bit of wishful thinking - it's never going to happen.

In saying all that, I do totally agree with the main point you've made before about being an acceptable risk/reward trade off for Ice doing this (you wouldn't be a business if you didn't!)  If you're not prepared to have a slightly more optimistic view about the reward (what I, and others, have suggested above), then can you please re-assess the risk component?  The two risks you've mentioned are:

1) Time taken to code/test/document/support the Mac loader.  You've stated that it will likely be 2-3 weeks of man time to do the initial coding; however, you can probably see why to the outsider this seems a tad conservative as very little new code seemingly needs to be written, as all the hard bits already exist in other applications (as you mentioned for the IceBox.)  Instead, would Ice be willing to commit about half a man-day for someone to actually go and spec the work required properly?  I'm presuming the 2-3 weeks is just a guestimate at the moment.  Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised that when you look at it, it really only turns out to be 1-2 days after all.  Or maybe it will turn out to be 2 months.  At least then you'll be able to give a good justification to the Mac/Toppy owners of why you're not doing it.

2) Risk of being responsible for bricked Toppies.  Seriously?  As people have mentioned before, every non-Windows Toppy owner out there (in the world, not just Ice users) is using unsanctioned software to use their Toppies.  And will happily release all responsibility from the software authors that let them do this.  Surely you can put a nice boilerplate software license around the software, as well as big blinking neon warnings on the download page that for those tech-savvy Mac/Toppy users who are willing to do this, that they are on their own?  Heck, you can even say it's officially unsupported and we can't ring you if we have trouble getting it working.  Again, the type of people who are calling for this I think will, by and large, not care (even the non-tech-savvy.)

And Daniel, thank you for patiently taking the time to keep on discussing this issue with those of us who continue to grumble about it, even if we currently seem at odds on some of the points.  It's very much appreciated, and is probably one of the main reasons we're still around here grumbling and not just given Ice up for dead.  And just imagine how pee'd off we'd be if you'd given us the cold shoulder instead!  :P

I know this isn't going to help most people, but I finally got jack of waiting for a fix to the specific issue that seemed to be holding me up and I decided to transparently proxy just the requests to IceTV (my issue was that EyeTV seem to want to go direct for some of it's updates).  I posted the network captures of this a while ago.

Anyway, I transparently proxied the IceTV requests, and then noticed this:

Code Select Expand

1195801201.466    149 192.168.17.5 TCP_MISS/200 419 GET http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/webaccount.cgi? - DIRECT/202.125.163.43 text/xml
1195801201.513    257 192.168.8.140 TCP_MISS/200 776 POST http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/pimp/pimp_server - DIRECT/202.125.163.43 application/octet-stream
1195801201.821    223 192.168.17.5 TCP_MISS/200 617 GET http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/epg/webpimpdevices.cgi? - DIRECT/202.125.163.43 text/xml
1195801218.819  17032 192.168.8.140 TCP_MISS/200 794637 POST http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/pimp/pimp_server - DIRECT/202.125.163.43 application/octet-stream

192.168.17.5 requests are those that are proxied correctly and 192.168.8.140 are those that are not.  I swear those requests to /cgi-bin/pimp/pimp_server weren't in the network capture before!  Anyway, that's the offending requests that seem to break everything else.

Hopefully EyeTV 2.5.2 will have updated IceTV components that will proxy everything correctly (and whatever other networking dodginess that seems to be breaking things for people who aren't even using proxies).  I also hope this info is of some use to IceTV in tracking down what seems to be wrong on their end.

As for me, I'm crossing my fingers my (now working) installation of EyeTV stays that way... ;)

You might want to give some more details on your setup so someone may be able to recognise what is going on.

e.g. what other TAPs do you have installed and running?  I know I had a TAP installed once that could be configured to automatically move/rename/delete files and directories.  Could it be something like that?

What sort of machine do you have your Toppy connected to (Windows/Mac) and do you use any other software on that side to do stuff with your Toppy?  I'm thinking here things like TEDS which may be connecting and doing the deleting for some reason.

If you try again by going through the program guide screen, and then selecting the 'gear' icon at the top of the screen and then select "Update IceTV Guide" and it should then update the guide.

Great to hear you guys are working on it , but I tried what you suggested above and unfortunately it didn't work.  I waited a couple of hours and it still didn't work.  I then waited more than an hour again, and sniffed the connection this time.  Looks identical to my post above (except now it takes longer to complete for some reason).

Anyway, was there anything else that needs to be done to get this working?  Do I need to delete and re-add devices via the IceTV web pages?  Stop/start EyeTV before trying to download the guide?  Anything else?

I've having this trouble also - I've tried all the suggestions in this post, delete and reapply the device in Remote, downgrade to version 2.3.3 etc but nothing is fixing the problem. The widget works fine and my account is active.

Me too (tm).

Sniffing the request I get the following responses:

Call to
http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/webaccount.cgi?op=account_query&product=eyetv&user=<username>&pass=<passworord>

Username and password have been removed.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<account>
       <result>0</result>
      <endtime>2008-01-03T13:59:00</endtime>
      <activated>0</activated>
     <error_msg></error_msg>
</account>

Call to
http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/epg/webpimpdevices.cgi?op=get_devices&format=plist

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple Computer//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<array>
  <dict>
   <key>id</key>
   <integer>0</integer>
   <key>label</key>
   <string>EyeTV</string>
   <key>manufacturer</key>
   <string>Elgato</string>
   <key>model</key>
   <string>EyeTV</string>
  </dict>
</array>
</plist>

We do have a method to supply guide updates to your Topfield that you may not be aware of, we have a re-purposed wireless router we call the IceBox that plugs into a wired network or accesses a wireless network and provides guide updates to your Topfield.

I've moved my reply to a more appropriate thread:

http://www.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=141.0

[exactly]

Your original service was centered around people who had Topfield 5000s.  To this day, you cannot get automated ICE updates to a Toppy connected to a Mac (to my knowledge).  The only "solution" that comes close was Nathan Oates' alpha release of ICEGuide4Topfield, but that didn't do scheduled updates and it also doesn't support using a proxy (so it's useless on my network).

We do have a method to supply guide updates to your Topfield that you may not be aware of, we have a re-purposed wireless router we call the IceBox that plugs into a wired network or accesses a wireless network and provides guide updates to your Topfield.

This solution requires no intervention once set up and only needs a connection to the internet. We support proxies so this may work for you.

I've followed this up here as this is the more appropriate forum to continue discussing it in.  This thread is one of the more recent attempts to ask for exactly what I was asking for.  Like this poster, I share exactly the same thoughts.  I have a Mac Mini as the heart of my media centre, so using things like the IceBox is redundant.

As far as a native solution for the Mac, I understand your frustration, we have debated this topic at length here at IceTV and unfortunately the lack of Mac support from Topfield makes it hard for us to supply a robust commercial solution as a native application.

Maybe you misunderstand what we're asking for.  We're not talking about an IceRemote solution for Mac-driven Toppies (though that would be nice!), as that obviously is not trivial.

We're talking about adding some simple USB upload code (which you already have from Nathan Oates' Mac ICEGuide4Topfield as I understand it) and cutting and pasting into into the Mac IceTV widget.  That's it!  That's all you would need to do!  The widget already does the scheduled download bit from IceTV on a Mac; if it would then be so nice as to then automatically upload that to the Toppy for us then all the Mac/Toppy users would have everything we ever wanted.

That's why we're frustrated... it's seems so simple and we've been so close for so long, but nada from IceTV on actually doing it.  I guess all you guys are using EyeTV cards in your Macs. ;)  But please spare a thought for all the other Mac based users who want to drive PVRs or anything else in the future.  That's what I meant in my original followup about consolidating your base first before launching into heaps of new features that only a subset of your users might be able to actually use.

[so]

Feedback like that is always welcome. We're definitely going to be careful not to over stretch ourselves. I'm surprised you think Mac support is anything but exceptional... EyeTV and Mac support is very important to us (I use a Mac Mini + EyeTV personally). What specific Mac stuff are you after?

Your original service was centered around people who had Topfield 5000s.  To this day, you cannot get automated ICE updates to a Toppy connected to a Mac (to my knowledge).  The only "solution" that comes close was Nathan Oates' alpha release of ICEGuide4Topfield, but that didn't do scheduled updates and it also doesn't support using a proxy (so it's useless on my network).

The current Mac support is all centered around onboard TV card support like the EyeTV.  There is a distinct lack of support for PVRs (IMHO) - IceRemote for a Mac-controlled Toppy anyone?  The really frustrating thing though is that you guys have been so close to having this complete solution for so long now!  It can't be that hard to add the USB/upload code to say the IceGuide widget (which already does the automated updates w/ proxy support) and I'd be a happy camper!  I (and others) have opined about this a couple of times over the last couple of years on this forum. :)

That's what I mean about little holes in your service that you need to patch up.  Remove these relatively simple gripes (along with those about the occasional lack of response to forum and email messages and not enough notification and explanation about when problems occur), and I'm sure you'll convert me and nearly everyone else into not only long-term subscribers, but advocates who will not hesitate to promote you as the only EPG service worth using - free or not.

Should ICE TV celebrate by giving a discount to the customers ;oP

Or new services for free?

We're working on it! Plenty of good things in the pipeline.

As the original poster who started this thread, let me add my heartfelt congratulations that sanity looks like it has prevailed and IceTV can now really throw themselves into their business with a lot more confidence! :)

But can I offer a word of advice?  I think now would be a really good time to consolidate what you have before launching off trying to provide a world of services that may or may not be of interest to the current small market that you have.  There are still many holes in your basic service (lack of proper Mac support the most glaringly obvious) that you need to patch up.  Your current user base is by no means assured, and they are not passionate promoters of your service to potential new customers.  Go back and look through many of the gripes/complaints/etc on these forums over the last 12-18 months.

I've been with you guys for over 2 years now, but I count myself among that number.  Now that the legal decision against Nine has been given, potential competitors to IceTV may now come out of the woodwork.  The first one that comes along that does what it needs to do very well with excellent customer service will have me as a customer.  Lots and lots of potentially questionable "features" will not win (or keep) me.  I just want an EPG service to do what it says and do it well, on the platform of my choice.  If over time they then incrementally add new features then that's a bonus, but it's not what I'll be sticking around for...

Anyway, my advice is probably worth exactly what you paid for it, but at least you can't say you didn't get any customer feedback! ;)

This announcement doesn't look like good news for Ice TV customers or PVR owners in general. It probably means new hardware, plus the technology will make it easy for the networks to lock out EPG providers they don't like;

Australia strikes EPG deal, but most TV watchers still screwed
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/13354/1085

This is interesting.  I tend to see it as more of a race to see who gets critical mass first.  As the itwire.com.au article points out, this all depends on overseas manufacturers willingness to build and maintain special Oz-only versions of their hardware that supports the encryption and other features that FreeTV are demanding.  Whether they do this will be purely a business decision based on whether they think they can sell more units and generate more profits by doing so.

From a home user point of view, simplicity is going to win at the end of the day.  If you can plug it in and go with the minimum of hassle, you'll buy the unit.  Or perhaps if you've got lots of friends/family who can help you out (that's why critical mass is so important.)  So if the current market of PVRs and providers of EPGs can get stuff working so that it's almost as easy as just plugging in one of the "FreeTV units", the other features they can provide (as well as the privacy benefits) will probably tip things in their favour.  Products like the IceBox obviously are a big step in the right direction.

All of this obviously then depends a lot on the increasing penetration of computers and the Internet into ordinary Australian homes.  And the increasing penetration of digital TV and devices like PVRs.  Once enough people get to the point where it's quite popular to have something like an IceBox or having their PC drive their PVR (and it's not viewed as technically hard to do - administer the "grandmother test" here  ;) ), then the door will be shut to FreeTV.  It just won't be in the manufacturer's interests to modify their units.  Sales people in places like Harvey Norman would just end up explaining the FreeTV units as "really just more expensive versions of the stock model that also track your viewing habits."  ;)

So it will be a very interesting "race" indeed.  :)

ABC2 won't be updated for awhile ...... bear with us please. I'm sure you don't want a long winded explanation as to why ..... it is beyond our control right now.

I'm sure you assume incorrectly.  This is an interruption to service and I, for one, am annoyed I had to search on the forums to find out about it.  And to compound matters, there is no official announcement or explanation of the outage other than your reference above, which completely dismisses the problem.

Mitch, I'm not personally having a go at you here.   But ICE should be way more proactive with things like this... it's what people pay for.  At the very least, a forum announcement should be posted detailing what the problem is and any ETA for resolution.

As you said, it's beyond your control and most people will be forgiving of that.  Ironically, even if it was a monumental screw-up on behalf of ICE, most people would forgive that as well (the first time).  But to not even voluntarily acknowledge the problem... that is unforgivable and is what will lose ICE subscribers.

Please post an announcement as to why we don't have ABC2 data, and when you are hoping to restore the full service we have all paid for.

[not]

So as I said the business case for IceTV is a bit uncertain.  The door is certainly still open, but we are wary of releasing proprietary code that might be used mainly to enhance the free epg solutions.

Peter, I'll offer you another point of view from a long-time subscriber.  Your value-add is not the software that makes ICE work (in all it's forms), it's:

• hassle free setup
• reliable service
• friendly, helpful support if required
• and most importantly, the content that you assemble and keep current yourself

The software is just an enabler for your service, and the service is what people pay for.  You could release all your proprietary code (on the client side), the free EPG solutions could totally rip it off, and I don't think it's going to affect your sales that much at all.  There will always be people who will spend inordinate amounts of time (and hidden money) trying to get "free" solutions working, and they would never subscribe to your service whether the current free EPG solutions work as slick as yours or not.  They will just wait, or go through other machinations to get their "free" solution working.  Denying them does not increase your sales.

However, what you do risk doing is missing all the sales from people who would pay the very fair fees you currently charge for your service, but won't currently because it doesn't work the way they want, or not reliably, or because they think they're missing out on functionality (I'm thinking about this thread here and the lack of a PIMP solution for the Toppy).  I've been waiting on an end-to-end solution for a Mac controlling a Toppy and using ICE for over a year now, and still no nirvana... if you produced this (and all the components are there and it's probably less than a week's development time), you would have me locked up as a life-time subscriber.  As it stands, if someone else comes along and serves my need (free or not), I will likely jump ship.

Leveraging off the very talented existing Toppy development community can only be a good thing for ICE.  Get as much software out there in all it's forms, and let people then decide what they want in a service.  I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of your subscribers would tell you that they would be quite happy to keep paying for ICE even if they were all using free, open-source, solutions.

But that's just a guess... hopefully other subscribers will follow this post up and let you know their thoughts as well. :)

Hi Dean,

Well I have some good and bad news.  Please take a look at this thread:

http://www.icetv.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=176.0

Bottom line is that you can't go "end-to-end" with a Toppy, a Mac, IceTV, and automated updates yet.  :-\  I know, because this is the exact set up I have, and I am waiting with baited breath for someone out of the various parties you mention to string it all together so my Mac Mini based media centre finally works the way I want! ;)

Anyway, you want to install MacTF and ToFi from Nathan Oates.  This allows you to update the firmware on the Toppy from your Mac, as well as upload/download files (e.g. to pull down shows to burn to DVD - however you may want to consider a Mac app called MPEGStreamClip for this - it can talk to Toppys and pull down shows for you).  You will probably also want to install the ProgressBarKeys and JustEPG TAPs for your Toppy as well (copy them up using MacTF).  These two TAPs I find essential.  There's lots of info around the place describing all they can do...

MacTF-EPG isn't useful at the moment, as it doesn't use ICE to get it's TV guide data from.  I tried cludging it to get it working underneath the hood, and it wasn't worth the time and effort in the end (I ended up starting to rewrite various bits of code, and realised this was bad if it was only going to be kludge...)  I never got it properly working in the end.

Nathan Oates also looks like he is currently writing a Mac based version of ICEGuide4Topfield (search on this forum for the link), and this actually works quite well!  However, it doesn't do scheduled updates yet.  It's the closest effort yet however.  It also doesn't work for me any more since I changed to using OpenVPN instead of PPTP for my home VPN, as it can't pick up my proxy setting properly any more, and the app doesn't allow you to explicitly specify your proxy settings. *sigh*  Ah well, it is just beta software at the moment. ;)

The Mac IceTV widget mentioned in the thread above is not real useful at the moment.  It just allows you to see the IceTV data on your Mac (so you can see the TV listings on your Mac).  If what Peter Vogel promises is true however, we may finally have the home run we've been waiting for in the next couple of weeks... *fingers crossed*

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Lee.

I'm running ICEGuide with Pocket TV Browser, which allows you to carry the EPG data on your Palm or PocketPC PDA.

http://www.doublebit.com/ptvb/

-- Rod

Rod, this programs looks cool.  Do you think you could post your config for how you got this setup and working?  Might save others (like myself) time fooling around with ptvmanager.ini trying to get it working... would be most appreciated if you could give us a head start!  ;D

Have a look at the ProgressBarKeys TAP written by Andy Cullen:

http://members.westnet.com.au/web/acullen/topfield.htm

It adds so many useful options to the Toppy it's not funny; including remapping the Subtitle key on the remote to bring up your timers in a sane display (i.e. with program names, etc).

Well worth the $25 registration fee for the full version!