Not sure if this is the right section for this. (or if it has been mentioned before)
I just went to schedule a new program and discovered that the choice of standard or HD definition recording seems to have disappeared.
Why is it so? :( ???
My understanding is that all recordings are now "prefer HD".
Yes our default have always been "Prefer HD", but if HD is not enabled in the IceTV Guide Settings and an SD channel is available it will choose SD. But SD has a poor picture and, counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression so HD is always the way to go. Having the choices caused confusion or illogical choices of "Prefer SD" (when one knows the reasons). So we have taken away the option to make the mistake.
Quote from: MD on November 24, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
Yes our default have always been "Prefer HD", but if HD is not enabled in the IceTV Guide Settings and an SD channel is available it will choose SD. But SD has a poor picture and, counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression so HD is always the way to go. Having the choices caused confusion or illogical choices of "Prefer SD" (when one knows the reasons). So we have taken away the option to make the mistake.
I agree with most of that, except that SD has a poor picture, and that the choices cause confusion or illogical choices. I do usually prefer the HD channels for recording, but I'm not convinced that many of them are native HD, but rather upscaled SD broadcasts, or that they always have significantly better picture quality than the SD channels. Also, I have in the past always recorded the SD channel as well as the HD channel in simulcast broadcasts just in case there happened to be problems with the HD stream. I haven't seen it lately, but in the past I do recall issues with video and/or audio on the HD channel that weren't apparent in the SD stream. Another issue that may be less important to most is one appears to have to take more care with compressing HD recordings with x265 for archiving to avoid combing.
So I generally record the HD option on a PVR that employs IceTV, and hedge my bets by recording both SD and HD streams on a PVR that employs the OTA EPG and autotimers as a backup option.
It does raise a question in my mind as to what happens with timers created on the PVR in the BW T/U/V series that employ IceTV. Would a timer created for an SD channel be registered as an SD timer on the IceTV servers, and, if and when the scheduled time for the broadcast changes, would the servers change that timer to an HD channel timer?
Quote from: MD on November 24, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression
I was told this once before and during the time when I was regularly getting doubled up recordings, I had the opportunity to test this and it simply wasn't the case for me. The HD version used quite a bit more space
All the broadcasters now use MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for their HD broadcasts. That means that if you did those measurements some time ago when HD was normally in MPEG2, they may not be relevant any more.
Here are some quick measurements for Canberra broadcasts using the bitrate plugin:
HD SD
ABC 3.0-3.1 3.8-3.9
SBS ONE 4.3-4.6 1.8-2.4
VICELAND 4.6-4.9
9 4.5-4.8 3.2-3.5
PRIME7 4.0-4.5 3.2-3.5
The measurements are in Mbit/sec. To convert to Gbyte/hour, multiply by 0.45 (3.6/8).
The bit rate differences are not great, and note particularly that the ABC HD bit rate is less than the ABC bit rate!
The ACMA no longer requires broadcasters to report on what proportion of their HD broadcasts are from HD sources, so I don't know how much is upscaled from SD (and IIRC, the minimum HD requirement was low when it was being reported, and only applied to commercial broadcasters). I'd presume that there has been a slow increase in the use of HD source material.
If you're watching recordings on a HD (or UHD/4k) TV, then any SD source material will need to be upscaled somewhere: by the broadcaster, by the PVR or by the TV.
There is some sense in recording in SD if the TV is SD.
So to try and clear up any confusion, we have removed some of the options on the website and iOS apps (the android app update is being worked on now) for series and keyword recordings. Namely these are the "limit per day", "network selection", "prefer HD/HD Only/prefer SD/SD Only" option, and the "Time" option. As going through all the scenarios available (and looking at how often these options were used) you could get the same effects by either disabling the channels you don't want to record on, but also using the "Channel" option and whether you wanted "repeats" or not, and this would simplify things tremendously.
Quote from: raymondjpg on November 24, 2019, 12:16:16 PM
It does raise a question in my mind as to what happens with timers created on the PVR in the BW T/U/V series that employ IceTV. Would a timer created for an SD channel be registered as an SD timer on the IceTV servers, and, if and when the scheduled time for the broadcast changes, would the servers change that timer to an HD channel timer?
Single timers created on either the PVR or on the IceTV website are linked to a specific airing of a show, if it moves times it will stay with that particular showing which will always stay on that channel, the HD airing has a different airing ID and it will not swap over to it.
If there are any questions just let us know and we can clear up any confusion there might be.
Quote from: Daniel Hall at IceTV on November 24, 2019, 06:35:47 PMSingle timers created on either the PVR or on the IceTV website are linked to a specific airing of a show, if it moves times it will stay with that particular showing which will always stay on that channel, the HD airing has a different airing ID and it will not swap over to it.
Thanks for clearing that up. I just set a single timer against a program on an SD channel of a simulcast, and it does show as a scheduled recording against the SD program in My Week. I'll take it that it would persist as an SD timer through scheduled screening time changes.
Quote from: prl on November 24, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
All the broadcasters now use MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for their HD broadcasts. That means that if you did those measurements some time ago when HD was normally in MPEG2, they may not be relevant any more.
As if on cue, Graham Norton recorded twice tonight. Not sure if this has to do with the old doubling up problem (happens occasionally, but not that often lately) or the preferences having been removed, however, here is the result
I asked for this a couple of years ago: Would it be possible to always offer the last option used? e.g. stored in a cookie
I nearly always prefer SD, except for the odd sci-fi or nature show where HD is worth it. So nearly every timer I set requires me changing the "Any channel" (or previous, "Prefer HD") option to the SD equivalent, meaning an extra mouse click every time.
My reasons for preferring SD recordings:
- Skippas don't process ad skipping on HD recordings.
- Despite what you say, I still believe the SD vs HD filesize can be significant for a "bulging" HDD.
- My Skippa seems to struggle (and reboot) more often when recording HD, especially with multiple recordings.
- I believe that ad skipping, FF, RW, etc is more sluggish on HD recordings, on both the Skippa and my Beyonwiz.
Quote from: ChrisW on November 25, 2019, 01:20:25 PM
- Despite what you say, I still believe the SD vs HD filesize can be significant for a "bulging" HDD.
[/quote
That is my experience (on a Beyonwiz). See attachment above
Hi ChrisW,
Regarding having to choose SD as we prefer HD the simple solution to that is to go to your IceTV Guide Settings in your account and disable every HD channel then SD will get chosen as we can't "Prefer HD". Also, I see you use an iPhone and the latest update removes the HD-SD choices so setting the option in your Guide Settings will become the only way to get SD every time, but its the easy way anyway.
Hi cstak40,
The reason we have removed these options is that having technically complex options to suit the few expert edge cases is simply not a good business model. The vast majority want a simple foolproof click and record choice or else they delve in and mess up and we lose far more "keep it simple" customers than the expert edge cases will ever add up to.
Quote from: MD on November 25, 2019, 02:44:42 PM
Regarding having to choose SD as we prefer HD the simple solution to that is to go to your IceTV Guide Settings in your account and disable every HD channel then SD will get chosen as we can't "Prefer HD". Also, I see you use an iPhone and the latest update removes the HD-SD choices so setting the option in your Guide Settings will become the only way to get SD every time, but its the easy way anyway.
Thanks for that.
I realise I could remove the HD channels, but then I wouldn't be able to record the occasional thing I do want in HD.
I don't actually use the iPhone app - just added it recently when I switched to an iPhone. I do the bulk of my scheduling on a laptop each morning.
Quote from: ChrisW on November 25, 2019, 03:12:30 PM
I realise I could remove the HD channels, but then I wouldn't be able to record the occasional thing I do want in HD.
That is exactly how I feel
Quote from: MD on November 25, 2019, 02:54:53 PM
Hi cstak40,
The reason we have removed these options is that having technically complex options to suit the few expert edge cases is simply not a good business model. The vast majority want a simple foolproof click and record choice or else they delve in and mess up and we lose far more "keep it simple" customers than the expert edge cases will ever add up to.
Sorry, I really don't understand what puts this in the "technically complex" category. OTOH, I would love some instructions online for setting keywords - I find that to be more complex.
I would also have been nice to be actually told of the change.
Quote from: ChrisW on November 25, 2019, 03:12:30 PMI realise I could remove the HD channels, but then I wouldn't be able to record the occasional thing I do want in HD.
No need to remove the HD channels. Just use the Channel option as advised by Daniel Hall.
Quote from: Daniel Hall at IceTV on November 24, 2019, 06:35:47 PMAs going through all the scenarios available (and looking at how often these options were used) you could get the same effects by either disabling the channels you don't want to record on, but also using the "Channel" option and whether you wanted "repeats" or not, and this would simplify things tremendously.
Quote from: raymondjpg on November 26, 2019, 10:48:06 AM
No need to remove the HD channels. Just use the Channel option as advised by Daniel Hall.
That still means I have to make a change on nearly every recording I set, which was the original complaint.
Quote from: csutak40 on November 25, 2019, 10:02:43 PM
I would love some instructions online for setting keywords - I find that to be more complex.
https://support.icetv.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/227076207-Using-Series-Recording-Favourites-Keyword-Recording-and-Keyword-Favourites - found by searching for "keyword" on the Help>Customer Support page.
Also, if you go to the TV Guide>TV Guide page and click on the Create Keyword Recording or Favourite link, that takes you to a form page that helps construct queries for Keyword Recordings and Favourites.
There are two minor issues with all that.
The first is that the customer support page says that you create the Favourite or Keyword Recording by going to that page, constructing the query and then clicking on the Add Keyword Record button. However, there is no such button, only PREVIEW KEYWORD. But if you click on PREVIEW KEYWORD, it does the search, and then there's an "Automatically favourite or record shows based on the following keyword (
search parameters)" link (which could do with a bit of rewording).
The second is that at the bottom of the Create Keyword Recording or Favourite, there are two buttons, PREVIEW KEYWORD and Reset, but the text in the Reset button appears to be white on white.
Quote from: ChrisW on November 26, 2019, 11:12:56 AMThat still means I have to make a change on nearly every recording I set, which was the original complaint.
I understand what you are saying but the requirement to select an SD option was there before the change. I'd say that your suggestion to default to last selected option (per user) would likely fall into the category of additional cost to the IceTV business, and having been through a couple of periods where IceTV faced the possibility of extinction, I'd rather have an IceTV without some user-selectable or user-specific options than no IceTV at all.
Others may disagree, but you pays your money and you takes your choice.
csutak40,
Re keywords - use the "Create keyword recording or favourite" under the TV Guide search bar (in red text). We'll improve its position and identity when we can but we are simply snowed under right now. See attached where I've entered a title, series and episode in each section and the search term is shown in the top slot, growing as each is added.
Quote from: ChrisW on November 26, 2019, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: raymondjpg on November 26, 2019, 10:48:06 AM
No need to remove the HD channels. Just use the Channel option as advised by Daniel Hall.
That still means I have to make a change on nearly every recording I set, which was the original complaint.
I don't suppose there is any point debating this, but, as it happens, I prefer "any channel" simply because there have been times when shows changed networks. The whole idea of IceTV is that if I have a favourite show and it disappears and then reappears (where ever) IceTV will notice for me, if I don't :D and set a recording for me.
And, to be clear, I wasn't asking for any change ATM (although, as Chris did, I did ask long ago, if there could be a way to set ones preferences, eliminating the need for fiddling with each setting) in fact I was asking why there
was a change, especially without any notice and especially a change to something that I doubt anyone found "technically complex"
so...don't update Android App ???
How does rewriting and updating websites downloading updates (bandwidth) equal cost savings , ???
Its taken since the end of my Xmas hols to get around to having a look at the forum.
I too an unhappy with losing the Prefer SD option.
Further, it always bugged me to have to set it every time I wanted to make a recording.
The simplest way to make the one touch concept work would be to move the setting to the My Account area (Apple TV has something similar).
For those more tech minded we could go there and set it once (perhaps for each PVR set up).
For the one touch devotees, you just leave it set to the default.
It can't be that hard.
Hi Tim,
So as to get to the best solution, why would you want to set "Prefer SD" every time you set a recording?
QuoteSo as to get to the best solution, why would you want to set "Prefer SD" every time you set a recording?
My 2c worth (seeing as I started this aspect of the topic):
- SD means smaller files on several near-capacity HDDs.
- I only use HD for shows that are worth it, like nature/space docs, some sci-fi.
- Playback of SD files seem to be smoother/quicker when it comes to ad jumping on multiple devices.
- HD files seem more prone to issues (reboots) on my Skippa during recording.
There are two ways that SD can still be specified, one is by using the option to restrict the recording to a channel. If however you only ever want to record on SD channels (as it looks like you do) then you can also disable all of the HD channels in your account and then all series recordings will only ever record on SD channels, this wasn't as much of an option before it was a true simulcast, but it is now.
The filesize can be comparable between both SD and HD, it really depends on the bitrate of the broadcast.
Quote from: Daniel Hall at IceTV on January 02, 2020, 05:26:31 PM
The filesize can be comparable between both SD and HD, it really depends on the bitrate of the broadcast.
I posted (http://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/smart-recording-website-and-general-questions/35/prefer-standard-definition/6281/msg32935#msg32935) some SD vs HD bit rate examples earlier in the topic.
Quote from: Daniel Hall at IceTV on January 02, 2020, 05:26:31 PM
There are two ways that SD can still be specified, one is by using the option to restrict the recording to a channel. If however you only ever want to record on SD channels (as it looks like you do) then you can also disable all of the HD channels in your account and then all series recordings will only ever record on SD channels, this wasn't as much of an option before it was a true simulcast, but it is now.
The filesize can be comparable between both SD and HD, it really depends on the bitrate of the broadcast.
Sorry Daniel, none of those "solutions" are really workable
As I mentioned earlier, sometimes shows change channels, even networks and there are shows that only show on HD (there was an example the other day, can't remember what it was)
I have posted examples of the difference in file size - it can be quite large.
Anyway, I would have thought that setting recordings to one channel only negates most of the advantages of subscribing to IceTV
I really think that this was a case of fixing something that wasn't broke (nor could it have saved any work/time for you, I don't think) and as I said before, I don't understand why that was " technically complex"
Quote from: csutak40 on January 03, 2020, 12:38:56 PM
Sorry Daniel, none of those "solutions" are really workable
As I mentioned earlier, sometimes shows change channels, even networks and there are shows that only show on HD (there was an example the other day, can't remember what it was)
Daniel's suggestion of removing the multicast HD channels from your setup would address the first problem perfectly. It would still allow you to record from channels broadcast only in HD, like SBS World Movies and Viceland HD.
The only regularly-occurring breakdown of SD/HD simulcast of the broadcaster's main channels I know of is when Perth broadcaster's channels go all pear-shaped to accommodate the local broadcaster's commitment to showing the AFL in HD.
If you could spell out in more detail when you think broadcasters show different programming on SD from what they're showing on HD on their main channel, it may help find a workaround that will suit you.
Quote from: prl on January 03, 2020, 12:53:55 PM
If you could spell out in more detail when you think broadcasters show different programming on SD from what they're showing on HD on their main channel, it may help find a workaround that will suit you.
I'll keep an eye out. There was something on the other day that was on HD only, can't remember what it was
Quote from: prl on January 03, 2020, 12:53:55 PM
The only regularly-occurring breakdown of SD/HD simulcast of the broadcaster's main channels I know of is when Perth broadcaster's channels go all pear-shaped to accommodate the local broadcaster's commitment to showing the AFL in HD.
That's unlikely to now happen after 16-Jan when 7mateHD replaces 7food network.
Quote from: prl on January 03, 2020, 12:53:55 PM
Quote from: csutak40 on January 03, 2020, 12:38:56 PM
Sorry Daniel, none of those "solutions" are really workable
As I mentioned earlier, sometimes shows change channels, even networks and there are shows that only show on HD (there was an example the other day, can't remember what it was)
Daniel's suggestion of removing the multicast HD channels from your setup would address the first problem perfectly. It would still allow you to record from channels broadcast only in HD, like SBS World Movies and Viceland HD.
The only regularly-occurring breakdown of SD/HD simulcast of the broadcaster's main channels I know of is when Perth broadcaster's channels go all pear-shaped to accommodate the local broadcaster's commitment to showing the AFL in HD.
If you could spell out in more detail when you think broadcasters show different programming on SD from what they're showing on HD on their main channel, it may help find a workaround that will suit you.
Thanks, but people keep missing the same point.
I WANT the HD multilcast channels to be there for the very occasional show that would be visually worthwhile recording in HD. e.g. a sci-fi movie or animal doco.
Otherwise I'd prefer the SD version every time.
Did you miss my last paragraph? I'm aware of the potential problems with disabling the HD channels.
Quote from: ChrisW on January 02, 2020, 04:47:36 PM
My 2c worth (seeing as I started this aspect of the topic):
- SD means smaller files on several near-capacity HDDs.
- I only use HD for shows that are worth it, like nature/space docs, some sci-fi.
- Playback of SD files seem to be smoother/quicker when it comes to ad jumping on multiple devices.
- HD files seem more prone to issues (reboots) on my Skippa during recording.
This sums up my reasons perfectly.
As I said initially, I never really liked the way it used to work, but at least it allowed me to do what I wanted.
I always wanted the option to be a preference selection.
I'm sure some people have only SD TVs as well.
I subscribe to the school of "HD ain't as good as they claim".
Technically HD is better, but my old eyes have yet to spot the difference between HD and SD.
Admittedly the sound is significantly better (True Surround sound) if you have the right equipment.
Regardless, it is simply about catering for different peoples situations and preferences.
As I have said, the simplest solution is to put a preference selection in the "My Account" "Recorders" area.
By all means default it to Prefer HD, so the less technically minded people don't have to change it, but at least give us the option.
Ideally, have all the same "Options" as before, just in a place where you can "Set it and forget it".
This makes the whole issue go away. The process for setting up a recording remains simple as per your original intent, but provides an option for the users that want to get technical.
I guess the App would need to change as well.
If you are busy right now, I can live with the workarounds, but I definitely would like what I suggest put on a "To Do" list.
I do realise that there is a bug that causes double-ups (about which I have a separate thread) but I am sure that this is different. Every time Graham Norton is on (and rarely happens with anyone else, and when it does, there is a slight difference between the two timers) it records both the HD and the SD definition version. I usually delete one before it records, but I forgot this time.
As this only started happening at the same time the system got changed re SD/HD I suspect this has something to do with that, but not sure what or how.
While on the subject, please note that (contrary to what we were told) HD is NOT smaller than SD
Hi,
re Graham Norton - is there a reason why you have it set to record on 10, 10HD and via unconstrained keyword Graham Norton on 10HD, which should be "Graham Norton" (to stop any recordings of shows that contain those two words anywhere especially in a synopsis)?
I've just run across a problem that may have been covered already.
The Tour Down Under this week is mostly on Prime 7 (simulcast on HD), except for the Peoples' Classic on Sunday, which is on 7TWO. If I select Any Channel then the 7TWO broadcast is picked up, along with the rest of the coverage on Prime 7 HD. If I want to just record the Prime 7 (SD) coverage, then selecting Prime 7 leaves me with the 7TWO broadcast not picked up. When I go to set a single recording for the 7TWO broadcast, IceTV throws an error saying that a series recording already exists.
I guess I could get around this with a keyword recording.
Quote from: MD on January 18, 2020, 08:47:09 AM
Hi,
re Graham Norton - is there a reason why you have it set to record on 10, 10HD and via unconstrained keyword Graham Norton on 10HD, which should be "Graham Norton" (to stop any recordings of shows that contain those two words anywhere especially in a synopsis)?
LOL No reason except for "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" What I normally (used to) do is to set a recording on SD for a show I want to watch. If I then discover that I missed a show because it showed up under a slightly different name, I set up a keyword to make sure it doesn't happen in future. I usually then delete the original setting. Must have forgotten.
I have now deleted it and it is now showing to record on HD only next week
That said, you say that I had it said to record on 10, 10HD. How could I have done that, as there is no longer a setting for that?
It could have been set for 10 (SD) in the past as those settings would remain. I see Graham Morton is still setting from that Keyword and should be constrained by double quotes, wouldn't it be better to simply set it as a series recording?