This week, The Bridge (usually SBS2 2030 Weds) has been bumped by the Iraq-Australia World Cup Qualifier. We have a series recording set up for The Bridge on our DP-Lite, and tonight's Bridge timer has gone, but it seems to have been replaced by one for the movie Black Out, staring at 2130.
Meanwhile, on our DP-P2, two simultaneous instances of recordings have been scheduled for Kitchen Cabinet, ABC2 2135 tonight Wed 17 Oct, one of which (obviously) failed. On top of that, we have had a single recording of Don't Blame the Dog (ABC2 2040 tonight) mysteriously appear without anyone setting it up.
We have since set up a series recording for Don't Blame the Dog, because we decided we'd give it a try.
All this is further complicated (or perhaps caused?) by the act that because we're away from home and on wireless broadband, IceTV only gets updated every couple of days.
Any ideas, IceFolk?
Same thing happened to me on my Topfield. Paniced when I saw that the recording was some movie. Got onto SBS ondemand to see that I have not missed an episode
It looked to me that (at least for The Bridge), the old timer for The Bridge wasn't deleted on the Beyonwiz as it should have been, and that was reflected back into IceTV as a manual recording of the movie, even though the timer didn't actually correspond to the movie's timeslot (but it may have overlapped). The timer on the Beyonwiz was unchanged.
I think something similar happened with Kitchen Cabinet, but I didn't check the details.
However, it sounds like he problem wasn't due to my less-than-optimal networking situation.
Quote from: prl on October 19, 2012, 10:26:02 AM
It looked to me that (at least for The Bridge), the old timer for The Bridge wasn't deleted on the Beyonwiz as it should have been, and that was reflected back into IceTV as a manual recording of the movie, even though the timer didn't actually correspond to the movie's timeslot (but it may have overlapped). The timer on the Beyonwiz was unchanged.
I think something similar happened with Kitchen Cabinet, but I didn't check the details.
However, it sounds like he problem wasn't due to my less-than-optimal networking situation.
Talking about
Quoteless-than-optimal networking situation
.
I have been in the unhappy situation that I blew my subscription out of the water, and am now down to 64KB rate.
This has been so for the last 2 weeks.
But over the last few days I have seen some oddities.
One I have reported on re a greyed out series timer on the website, that has been set and working for months.
This resolved itself.
Also I have been seeing some odditys with the timers in the Wiz.
The timers have been set, but only show the *ch7 , *ch 10 type of description. This has been seen on 2 separate devices.
These timers had the correct description last night at one stage. This morningg all timers were in that state. on one bpox, but the EPG was showing the correct decriptions.
About half were in that state on the other box.
On both boxes, there was only EPG entries up to about next wednesday, Some channels were into thursday.
My assumption is that this is caused by the slow network. I can only wait till a few more days are up, then we'll see.
On one box
ACT Guide
We had another one of thee that I noticed today. IceTV was showing a single recording of Heartbeat (7TWO 19:30 Wed 24 Oct) that we had not programmed.
When I looked at the Beyonwiz timers, there was a timer labelled for Borderline for 7TWO 19:05-19:35 Wed 24 Oct. We had a series recording set for Borderline, but the IceTV guide times for it were for 19:00-19:30. This timer explains why IceTV was showing recordings for both Borderline and Heartbeat. I suspect that what happened was that when the timer for Borderline was first set by IceTV, it was for 19:05-19:35, but the IceTV guide was later amended to 19:0-19:30. When that amendment was available, somehow the timer didn't get updated.
Borderline was shown as running 19:00-19:30 in the printed weekly program in the Sunday Canberra Times 21 Oct, in the weekly program in Monday's Canberra Times 22 Oct and in the daily program in today's Canberra times 24 Oct.
My Access has now been sped up as I have now started a new month. My timers and Epg are now in good shape with no anamolies.
I can only say that my previous problems were caused by the slow rate.
Seem to me that there may be no sequence checking/handshaking taking place with the protocol, UDP packets only?
Grampus,
It really depends on how your ISP shapes your data. If they drop packets and rely on TCP to retry, or in the case of UDP, the application would do this.
I have had similar experiences with shaping in the past, where you would think that 64k would be fine for small amounts of data yet for the simplest of web-pages or services, it just didn't work well (if at all).
Our service is over HTTP (over TCP) so it's really up to each manufacturer how they implement timeouts and retries on the box. We could also look at increasing any timeouts on our webserver for GET and POST data, which may help in these situations.
Thanks for your comments.
I monitor the data rate on my 3G dongle while I'm updating the IceTV data on the Beyonwizes. Mainly so I can tell when the update has completed without turning on the TV, but it's clear from that that there's no TCP timeout happening during the updates on our BWs.
Quote from: prl on October 24, 2012, 02:30:38 PM
When I looked at the Beyonwiz timers, there was a timer labelled for Borderline for 7TWO 19:05-19:35 Wed 24 Oct. We had a series recording set for Borderline, but the IceTV guide times for it were for 19:00-19:30. This timer explains why IceTV was showing recordings for both Borderline and Heartbeat. I suspect that what happened was that when the timer for Borderline was first set by IceTV, it was for 19:05-19:35, but the IceTV guide was later amended to 19:0-19:30. When that amendment was available, somehow the timer didn't get updated.
As surmised by prl they are false timers that appear due to the overlap between the old recording and the updated recording. They only appear in My Week or the TV Guide. They are not real timers, schedules, or reservations set on the recorder, and they will not record.
Any time that a timers' start time or duration changes you may see 'false' single recordings listed in My Week and the TV Guide for the show before or after the changed recording. As soon as the recorder and the IceTV server get in sync the 'false' single recordings will be gone. i.e. Within 15 minutes to an hour - depending on your recorder's update frequency - the false recordings will vanish.
When a show's start time or duration changes IceTV sets a delete message for the old timer and and a new record message for the updated timer. Until the recorder reports back that the old timer has been deleted IceTV will display that old timer as still existing... except now it overlaps another show so that other show now appears as if it has a single timer set.
Quote from: Dave at IceTV on October 24, 2012, 08:06:06 PM
...
When a show's start time or duration changes IceTV sets a delete message for the old timer and and a new record message for the updated timer. Until the recorder reports back that the old timer has been deleted IceTV will display that old timer as still existing... except now it overlaps another show so that other show now appears as if it has a single timer set.
Hi, Dave.
There was some detail omitted for brevity and readability in my post.
What you've described is no doubt how it
should work, but the detail of what I did was:
- Looked at the my IceTV My Week page, and saw the "false timer" for Heartbeat before connecting my laptop with the wireless broadband to the wired network switch that our Beyonwizes are connected to
- Looked at the Beyonwiz timer list and observed that the Borderline timer was different from the program times in the then current IceTV guide (19:05 start rather than 19:00 start).
- Connected the laptop to the Beyonwiz wired network and allowed IceTV to update.
- Refreshed the My Week page, and the "false timer" was still there.
- Looked at the Beyonwiz timer list, and the timer for Borderline was still set to start at 19:05 rather than the correct 19:00 start time.
- Reset the Beyonwiz timer by hand to the correct time slot.
It appears to me that somehow either IceTV did not issue a delete for the old timer, or the Beyonwiz did not delete it when it was instructed to.
ACT Guide, early model Beyonwiz DP-P2 fw 01.05.350.
Now I have IceTV My Week saying I have the following recordings on ABC2 for Wed 31 Oct:
20:35-21:30 Don't Blame the Dog
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (yes, twice)
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week (yes, twice again)
22:35-23:15 The Great Food Truck Race
The actual timers set on the Beyonwiz are:
20:40-21:35 Don't Blame the Dog
21:35-22:10 Kitchen Cabinet
22:10-22:40 Mock The Week
No timer for The Great Food Truck Race
Clearly The Great Food Truck Race is showing up on IceTV because of the actual timer for Mock The Week on the Beyonwiz overlapping the current timeslot for The Great Food Truck Race.
However, I just don't get the rest of it, especially not the doubled-up recordings on My Week.
I can leave the Beyonwiz disconnected from the net for a while to preserve the current state if anyone from IceTV would like to have a look at this.
"Never miss your favourite show again."
I've realised that the doubled-up scheduled Series Recording icons in My Week probably have the same cause as the "phantom" Great Food Truck Race scheduled single recording icon.
The timer on the Beyonwiz for Don't Blame the Dog overlaps the IceTV Guide time for Kitchen Cabinet. And he timer for Kitchen Cabinet also overlaps the IceTV Guide time for that program - hence two "recordings" of Kitchen Cabinet in My Week.
Similarly for Kitchen Cabinet and Mock The Week.
I've now had a second entry for Don't Blame the Dog turn up in My Week. It's still a "queued" recording so far, because I haven't connected the Beyonwizes to IceTV since I last posted.
IceTV My Week now says I have the following recordings on ABC2 for 31 Oct:
20:35-21:30 Don't Blame the Dog (series queued)
20:35-21:30 Don't Blame the Dog (series scheduled)
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (series scheduled)
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (series scheduled)
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week (series scheduled)
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week (series scheduled)
22:35-23:15 The Great Food Truck Race (single scheduled)
The two recordings of Don't Blame the Dog don't seem to be explained by timers not matching the IceTV guide times.
I haven't changed any of those timers on the DP-P2, but even if I had, IceTV has no way of knowing, because I haven't connected again since I last posted.
I've just connected up the Beyonwizes to the net via wireless broadband on my laptop for their regular update, and these programs are now even more of a mess than they were before.
IceTV My Week now says I have the following recordings on ABC2 for 31 Oct:
20:35-21:30 Don't Blame the Dog (series recording failed)
20:35-21:30 Don't Blame the Dog (series scheduled)
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (series scheduled)
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (series recording failed)
21:30-22:05 Kitchen Cabinet (series scheduled)
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week (series scheduled)
22:05-22:35 Mock The Week (series scheduled)
22:35-23:15 The Great Food Truck Race (single scheduled)
The timers on the Beyonwiz remain unchanged.
The other recordings on Wednesday night are:
SBS1 20:30-21:35 The Bridge
Prime Canberra 22:35-23:30 Air Crash Investigations
Somehow the IceTV recording for The Bridge disappeared (http://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php/topic,3640.msg17783.html#msg17783) without my doing anything - I reinstated it between this update and the previous one.
There should be no timer conflicts; not even soft padding conflicts in this set of recordings.
So now three My Week entries for Kitchen Cabinet. Can I claim some sort of record?
I've now given up on this, deleted the timers of the Beyonwiz and re-set them manually from the IceTV EPG on the Beyonwiz.
What a mess!
"So many out-of-the-way things had happened lately, that Alice had begun to think that very few things indeed were really impossible."
Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Hi Guys,
We are experiencing some technical difficulties at present and have the entire dev team investigating the cause.
Our sincere apologies for the inconvenience.. we are doing our best to resolve the issue as quickly as possible.
Regards,
Luke
Thanks, Luke.
Let me know if there is anything I can do to assist.
"Alice soon came to the conclusion that it was a very difficult game indeed." :)
Hi everyone,
I have two issues with IceTV programming. The second might be due to the problems IceTV are having, but I'm fairly sure the first isn't
1. Last night, I wanted to copy two programs, Q&A on ABC1 and a show on Channel 7 at the same time. However, when I program Q&A into the system, it picks it up from both ABC1 and ABC24. So is it copying two shows and would not copy a third on a different channel. The result is that I now have two copies of Q&A and have missed the Channel 7 program. IT WOULD BE FAR BETTER IF I COULD NOMINATE THE CHANNEL FOR RECORDING SHOWS AND NOT JUST THE NETWORK as someone has already said elsewhere.
2. With some shows that I have set for copying, it all works fine initially, but I end up getting an exclamation mark beside the program which means it won't copy. I think I can defeat this by deleting the offending timer immediately before the show is due to start and reprogramming it. This problem seems to only occur with some shows. Tomorrow night, for example, I have programmed Monster Bug Wars at 7:30, Dynamo at 8:35 and a movie at 11:05. I have reprogrammed Dynamo three times now and, eventually, it still seems to get the exclamation mark. I had the same problem with Dynamo last week. I'd appreciate knowing if this is a problem at my end and I can do something about it, or a problem with IceTV.
Cheers,
Rick
Hi Ricky,
No.1 is easy to fix. Set the Advanced option for Q&A to "Only standard def." which will force it to only record on ABC1.
If you prefer to record it on ABCNews 24 set it to "Only high def."
No.2 looks like you have the wrong region selected. If you actually do get the Sydney channels (7, 9 and 10 etc) then your selected region is ok. If instead you actually get the Wollongong channels (6, 8 and 5 etc) then you should change the region to "NSW Regional Southern" AND set your correct channel numbers, as outlined here:
http://support.icetv.com.au/entries/20105463-how-do-i-map-channels-on-the-icetv-website-for-my-recorder
Thanks very much Dave. Most appreciated. The problem arose because I moved from Picton to Bowral. Associated with the move, I upgraded my whole stereo/TV system and, incorrectly, assumed that the installers made all necessary changes to my BW.
I have done all as you suggested, but cannot find three stations on the IceTV website:
- Gold (84)
- 4ME (64)
- One Wollongong (50)
The stations do exist on my TV. Any suggestions?
Cheers,
Rick
Hi Rick,
For One Wollongong, we just call it One. You had it disabled. I have now set it to channel 50.
For 4ME and Gold, they are datacasting channels and we don't cover datacasting channels in our guide. A datacasting channel is extremely low quality and is not licensed to show real TV programs. Instead, the current crop of data casting channels repeatedly show the same series of 30 or 60 minute long infomercals (sometimes masquerading as real shows).
Some previous datacasting channels over the last 5 years in Sydney have been The Home Shopping Channel, Christian TV, National Indigenous TV, Federal Parliament, RTA Traffic Cam and we have never included them. The only difference now is that they have spread beyond Sydney and now the TV networks are trying to get people to watch them by pretending they are more than they really are.
Thanks Dave. All seems fine now ;D.
Cheers,
Rick
Sorry, but I thought it was all OK. However, it's not. I went into IceTV this morning just to check and there were exclamation marks everywhere. So, I deleted all timers in BW and IceTV, good and bad, and reset them in IceTV. I then went back into IceTV and the attached is what is there. I have searched on "remove timers" in IceTV Forum and found nothing. Help please. I have a BW DP-P2.
Cheers,
Rick
Hi Dave,
Further to my email above I should point out a couple of things that might help your analysis:
1. After I had cleared the timers and deleted everything off IceTV, I re-entered everything into IceTV.
2. Initially it all looked good, hence my post a couple above saying it was all OK. By that, I mean the symbols before the entries on My Shows and My Week were correct. I thought we'd won! The attachment above still has one show with the correct symbols before it, but that has now changed to a yellow triangle with an exclamation mark inside. So, it all looks good for a time after the entries had been made.
3. Tonight, I thought I'd delete New Tricks from IceTV and re-enter it. This was about 15 minutes before the show was due to start. My rationale was that if the symbols were still correct in both My Shows and My Week (i.e. 15 minutes after I had entered it), it might start recording at 8:30. This relied on the thought that it'd stay correct for more than 15 minutes -- time enough for the recording to start. I didn't see this, but my wife informs me that we got the usual message to state that the recording had, in fact, started. However, I looked at the PVR at 8:35 and it hadn't started at all. What's more, I went straight into IceTV and noted that the symbol for New Tricks had changed in My Week to the exclamation mark.
4. I remind you that all the symbols before the programs in My Shows always were and still are correct. They are incorrect in My Week.
5. Over the last few weeks, only some programs had screwed up, others recorded as they should (ignoring the issue of what to do if the same program is on two channels). So, things seem to have gotten worse in the last few days.
Cheers,
Rick
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PM
... Tonight, I thought I'd delete New Tricks from IceTV and re-enter it. This was about 15 minutes before the show was due to start. ...
Probably not the best way to test something. It can take up to 15 minutes for a Beyonwiz to request an update from IceTV. If you have any pre-padding, that means there's a possibility that IceTV may try to update the timer after it's started running.
Still strange that you didn't get a recording, though.
Quote from: prl on November 24, 2012, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PM
... Tonight, I thought I'd delete New Tricks from IceTV and re-enter it. This was about 15 minutes before the show was due to start. ...
Probably not the best way to test something. It can take up to 15 minutes for a Beyonwiz to request an update from IceTV. If you have any pre-padding, that means there's a possibility that IceTV may try to update the timer after it's started running.
Still strange that you didn't get a recording, though.
The good thing about a Beyonwiz is that when it receives a timer from IceTV for a show that has already begun the Beyonwiz will immediately start recording the remainder of that show. Other recorders can reject the timer as the start time has already passed. Still, I would not recommend setting timers less than 15 minutes before the start time.
Thanks, Dave. I didn't know that about IceTV on Beyonwiz.
Hi Ricky,
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PM
1. After I had cleared the timers and deleted everything off IceTV, I re-entered everything into IceTV.
Strangely, 2 SBS One shows have failed to be scheduled (with no reason returned from the Beyonwiz). All other shows are still queued, waiting to be downloaded by your Beyonwiz (which appears to have been turned off since 9:30pm last night).
Old timers stuck in the Beyonwiz's Timer List can cause failed timers with no reason returned. The first timer at the top of the list should NOT have a date in the past.
Check if there are any old timers in the timer list:
- While in the Guide or viewing a TV channel,
- Press Pop-Up.
- Press ok on Timer List.
- Use the green button to delete any 'old' timers at the top of the list.
- Exit the Timer List.
Note: Do NOT delete any timers for tonight onwards. Only delete OLD timers with dates in the past, or start times from earlier today.
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PM
4. I remind you that all the symbols before the programs in My Shows always were and still are correct. They are incorrect in My Week.
Series recordings listed in My Shows always show the solid series icon. This just indicates that they are a series. It does NOT indicate anything as far as troubleshooting if they been set on the recorder yet.
The only icons that change to indicate the show's status are those in My Week and TV Guide. My Week is where you need to be looking to check if your shows are set to record or not.
Hi guys,
Thanks for your attention. It is most appreciated.
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PMStrangely, 2 SBS One shows have failed to be scheduled (with no reason returned from the Beyonwiz). All other shows are still queued, waiting to be downloaded by your Beyonwiz (which appears to have been turned off since 9:30pm last night).
Yes, it was off until 5:45 tonight -- but it's on now. I note that all still looks good in IceTV. I'm not sure what you mean by your comments on SBS One.
Quote from: rickym on November 23, 2012, 09:51:00 PMCheck if there are any old timers in the timer list:
- While in the Guide or viewing a TV channel,
- Press Pop-Up.
- Press ok on Timer List.
- Use the green button to delete any 'old' timers at the top of the list.
- Exit the Timer List.
Note: Do NOT delete any timers for tonight onward. Only delete OLD timers with dates in the past, or start times from earlier today.
OK, I did that and went into Pop-Up -- an hour and a half after I had switched BW on. The field is blank -- nothing is there.
Now, I'm waiting for 8:30 to see if Hunted is copied.
Cheers,
Rick
G'day guys,
Further to my post above
Despite everything looking OK at Ice TV (please see the attachment), the show is not being recorded -- it's 9:15 and the timer list is still empty :(. Help please.
I have been away a fair bit over the last few months, so I have not really had a chance to test it out properly. However, I did have my BW in for repairs back in May or June. Could this be the same problem? Sorry, but I'm an older fart and really don't remember the details.
I'll leave BW switched on for the time being. From your comments above on SBS One, I assume you can access it.
Cheers,
Rick
Have you gone into Setup>network>IceTV, and watched the information window?
You should see the timer fetch and the EPG fetch happening.
This will give you something to make you comfortable that you are sending requests off to the Ice server.
Thanks very much for your input, guys, but I have solved it. I had changed passwords across the board, including IceTV, but forgetting BW :-[. Once I made the two passwords the same, all these last problems went away. Maybe, this was part of the problem from the start in addition to the hassles of moving, simulcasts, etc?
While on the topic of passwords, though, any chance of getting IceTV to accept characters in them, such as !@#$%^&*.
Cheers,
Rick.
Quote from: rickym on November 25, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
While on the topic of passwords, though, any chance of getting IceTV to accept characters in them, such as !@#$%^&*.
Often these character issues are from the PVR itself. For example: IceTV supports the @ sign in your username and/or password but the Beyonwiz seems to not send the login details correctly if it includes an @ sign. The Beyonwiz is possibly sending an incorrect character code instead of @ or maybe even dropping the @. Whatever it is sending results in the Beyonwiz displaying false error messages when you 'Check User Info'.
If the Member ID contains an @ sign the Beyonwiz shows:
"Network connection failed. Check the network setting first."
If the Password contains an @ sign the Beyonwiz shows:
"System is busy. Please try again later."
It can also alternate between these and other error messages.
The Elgato EyeTV software for Macs has the same issue with the @ sign. EyeTV signs in to IceTV OK but then gives a 'Server Error' when you click on 'Update Now' to force a guide update.
Quote from: toppytools on December 01, 2012, 02:33:02 PM
... The Beyonwiz is possibly sending & instead of @ or maybe even dropping the @. ...
Sending & seems an unlikely choice. @ (commercial at) doesn't even have a named HTML character entity reference. & is & (ampersand).
LOL, of course you are correct, even if pedantic.
Quote from: rickym on November 25, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
While on the topic of passwords, though, any chance of getting IceTV to accept characters in them, such as !@#$%^&*.
Generally a number of these characters are normally seen as "special" characters in any number of operating system structures. Why would you wish to make these useable, there are may other characters that are available for use
Yesterday I had a bit of a dig around on the Beyonwiz forum and in the IceTV FAQs, but I couldn't find anything that described what the restrictions are on IceTV passwords on the Beyonwiz.
I can't see any reason why normal printing ASCII-7 non-alphanumerics should be disallowed in passwords. No matter what the operating system. Some care may need to be taken with HTML reserved characters like & to make them work properly (IceTV, at least the initial connection, appears to be HTTP-based). However, as I mentioned before, @ is not one of those characters.
OS limitations on what characters are permitted in things such as file names should in no way affect what characters are permitted in passwords.
Unfortunately, there hasn't been a Beyonwiz firmware release for nearly two years, and there is no firmware in beta, so we're probably stuck with any such limitations in the Beyonwiz firmware.
Hi Grampus,
Quote from: grampus on December 01, 2012, 07:38:04 PM
Quote from: rickym on November 25, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
While on the topic of passwords, though, any chance of getting IceTV to accept characters in them, such as !@#$%^&*.
Generally a number of these characters are normally seen as "special" characters in any number of operating system structures. Why would you wish to make these useable, there are may other characters that are available for use
Not that I want to spell it all out, but I have a password that I use for all sites like this one. That password includes one of the characters listed here. That way, I only have to remember a few passwords, each variant occurring according to the nature of the website. If I can, I don't want to have exceptions as I'm an older fart and have problems remembering what I'm doing. Every other site I use allows characters; a couple even demand it from a security perspective (along with a mixture of upper and lower case letters, and a mix of alpha/numeric characters). Why is IceTV the exception?
Cheers,
Rick
Your IceTV password is different to a password on other websites because an IceTV account may be used on more than just the website. Many special characters are allowed, but not recommended. Any special character that you use would need to be supported by the software and devices that you use to connect to IceTV.
Some supported devices don't have certain characters on their onscreen keyboards.
For example:
A Humax cannot type # % & < >
A Topfield cannot type ` # $ ^ [ ] \ ; " < >
A Beyonwiz cannot type * | \ : " < > / ?
And some supported devices do not work properly with IceTV if certain characters are used (even though they can type those characters).
For example:
Beyonwiz PVRs cannot download from IceTV if the IceTV Member ID or Password contain @
Dvico PVRs cannot sign in if the IceTV Password contains @
Quote from: Dave at IceTV on June 08, 2013, 11:59:26 PMSome supported devices don't have certain characters on their onscreen keyboards.
For example:
A Humax cannot type # % & < >
A Topfield cannot type ` # $ ^ [ ] \ ; " < >
A Beyonwiz cannot type * | \ : " < > / ?
That's a shame as I have said. It means I have to change my "common" password just for the Topfield PVR -- either that or have one exception to the rule. Exceptions to the rule mean I have to remember it. I'm an older fart and that could be problematic.
And as I said in a previous post, some websites insist I use one or more of the special characters. That means Topfield is the odd one out :(.
Rick