I see from the Federeal Court website that a decision was handed down on Nine vs IceTV http://esearch.fedcourt.gov.au/Esearch?p=further_details&det=coa_listings&mat_id=3525133 (http://esearch.fedcourt.gov.au/Esearch?p=further_details&det=coa_listings&mat_id=3525133)
What was the outcome?
Has it been published?
Thanks,
Peter Vogel
Yes, the judgment is on AustLII: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2008/71.html
My reading of it is that the appeal succeeded and the case goes back to the original judge to be reheard.
Not a Lawyer.
Curses upon channel Nein.
Reading between the lines on this issue, I think they are harassing Ice TV because the information in the EPG helps us circumvent their ads which hurts their revenue.
My guess is that Nein would use their large financial resources to harass any company that provided this information.
Think about the recording companies lawsuit against Napster. Napster was a single target that was easy to hit. They got shut down. But now you have peer to peer filesharing programs like Limewire and Bit Torrent. There's not one single target. So it doesn't matter how deep the pockets of the litigant - there's so many people using the technology, you will never be able to shut it down.
Similarly with EPG's. I gladly pay my subscription to Ice TV. I'd gladly pay double. I love Ice TV. But in the long term, the best way to defeat the information nazis at Nein is to supply the EPG info from a multitude of sources. Nein won't be able to sue every viewer in Australia. If there is some sort of peer to peer technology where we all participate in providing and distributing the information, then Nein can spend al the money they like, they won't be successful.
Perhaps Ice TV should look at a framework where they license the technology to us, but not the information. So that they're not officially the providers of the EPG information - just the providers of software that handles EPG info provided by a myriad of suppliers.
The bottom line for me is that I want to "stick it up" any nazi organization like Nein that is trying to restrict the flow of informaiton, and force me to watch their inane, low IQ, moronic ads.
Quote from: neilius on May 09, 2008, 10:54:43 AM
...
Reading between the lines on this issue, I think they are harassing Ice TV because the information in the EPG helps us circumvent their ads which hurts their revenue.
...
There's currently nothing in the IceTV EPG that helps with ad skipping that isn't already in the FTA EPG that Nine (and the other commercials) already broadcast, so the motivation may be a bit more complicated.
The commercials
do want to maintain control over the information, and there was a June 2007 press release (http://www.freetv.com.au/media/News-Media_Release/2007-0174_MED_FREE_TV_NETWORKS_USHER_IN_NEW_ERA_OF_DIGITAL_TV_040707.pdf) and some interviews at the time from FreeTV (the commercial TV broadcaster's lobby group) that appear to suggest that the introduction of TVio in Australia might mean that some of the EPG information was only available to TVio and similar subscribers. The FreeTV interviews at the time seemed to suggest that the EPG licenses would only be granted to PVRs that had no skip function, and limited fast-forward speed. From my reading of the DVB-T standards, they
do support encryption of the Event Information Table (program times, titles, episode names & synopses).
I'm not sure what happened about that because there was another Free TV press release in November 2007 (http://www.freetv.com.au/media/News-Media_Release/2007-0304_Free_TV_Networks_to_Broadcast_Industry_Electronic_Program_Guide_141107.pdf) that said that the 7-day EPG would be available free.
But the bottom line is still the same.
The broadcaster wants to restrict access to EPG info because they don't want people avoiding their ads. The Tivo was changed so that when you hit the ad skip button it actually displayed some other ads. The broadcasters admission that they don't want the EPG info available to any device that can skip ads is a tacit admission of what this is all about.
The broadcasters want to retain their "right" to spew their ads into our living rooms and will do whatever they can to stop us blocking those ads.
My suggestion to Ice TV is to license their software to us, not the EPG data, and modify the model so that we all can contrbute to and independently rebroadcast the EPG info. If the data is coming from several thousand different places, and all Ice TV is doing is licensing their own software, then there's nothing Nein can do about it.
Quote from: neilius on May 09, 2008, 11:45:07 AM
My suggestion to Ice TV is to license their software to us, not the EPG data, and modify the model so that we all can contrbute to and independently rebroadcast the EPG info. If the data is coming from several thousand different places, and all Ice TV is doing is licensing their own software, then there's nothing Nein can do about it.
Possibly not an "out":
Quote from: COPYRIGHT ACT 1968 - SECT 132ALMaking or possessing device for making infringing copy
Indictable offences
........(1) A person commits an offence if:
................(a) the person makes a device, intending it to be used for making an infringing copy of a work or other subject‑matter; and
................(b) copyright subsists in the work or other subject‑matter at the time of the making of the device.
........(2) A person commits an offence if:
................(a) the person possesses a device, intending it to be used for making an infringing copy of a work or other subject‑matter; and
................(b) copyright subsists in the work or other subject‑matter at the time of the possession.
........(3) An offence against subsection (1) or (2) is punishable on conviction by a fine of not more than 550 penalty units or imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both.
Note: A corporation may be fined up to 5 times the amount of the maximum fine (see subsection 4B(3) of the Crimes Act 1914 ).
Is what you suggest covered by this? I'm not sure. I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that it was :)
Prl
Thanks for the excellent details.
The crux of the act is "intent".
If the "device" (software) is intended for a community to share information about their favourite TV shows - rating the shows, commenting on episodes, and noting when they think the next episode will be shown for anyone who happens to be interested, then you could establish a case that the "device" is a mechanism to encourage community discussion, not to infringe copyright.
E.g. there's no law against me saying publicly "I think chanel nein news is of a poor quality and aimed at people of primary school intellect. See for yourself by watching channel nein between 6pm and 6.30pm tonight". Now if you format what I've said as an XML snippet, and publish it on an RSS feed, with exactly the same content, you're not breaking any laws.
In fact, it might be great to be able to have a button on your PVR which says "This show sucks" or "I love this show" and publish it so everyone in the country can see how pathetic some TV shows are, or how good others are.
In fact, Ice TV Interactive already has most of the hooks in place to do this with their "I watch this" thingy.
[rant]
The reason for my passion in all of this is that I really find it unacceptable that a corporation is trying to force me to watch their ads, and is prepared to litigate against Ice TV to further their goals.
It just brings out the anarchist in me :(
[/rant]
Hi nellius. The problem is that if you look at some of the IceTV synopses, especially for commercial current affairs programs, they're not that far removed from your Nine News synopsis. They certainly aren't what the broadcasters would say publicly about the shows :)
However, from the appeal judgment, that doesn't seem to be the whole issue. My reading (with limited understanding) of the appeal judgment is that IceTV may have breached copyright existing in the times and titles alone. I'm not sure though, whether the judgment says that IceTV did breach copyright, or whether the original judge has to reconsider whether they did or not.
IceTV's response to the judgment is here: http://www.icetv.com.au/news/?p=162
I sent the following email to Minister Conroy: (minister@dbcde.gov.au)
QuoteDear Minister Conroy,
I'm writing this email to you to express the immense frustration and disgust that I and many others are currently feeling over the outcome of today’s ICE TV vs Nine TV Guide Copyright case.
I am the owner of a PVR and a Microsoft Media Center PC who has been forced to resort to using the ICE TV Service to facilitate the recording of TV shows â€" I don’t object to paying for Ice’s Guide, what I do object to is the ridiculousness of the TV networks in Australia being able to claim copyright over what is essentially a collection of facts which should be public domain (like in every other country with TV broadcasters … yes, even in the USA).
The TV stations being allowed to claim copyright allows them to refuse to provide this information to interested parties unless they meet their excessive and draconian usage policies. Case in point; Australia is the only country in the world in which Microsoft is unable to supply an Electronic TV Guide to it’s Media Center customers because the TV stations don’t want people recording TV and potentially skipping their ads.
I implore you to introduce into law the following to fix FTA TV in Australia:
- Mandate that all Digital TV Broadcasters provide an unencrypted, accurate, rolling 7 day EPG via the Australian EIT (part of our DVB-T standard) System.
- Mandate that This EPG Data be supplied to any interested party that requests it without any re-transmission or usage restrictions (schedule info should be public domain).
- Mandate that broadcasters stick to their published guide schedules â€" Currently the TV stations deliberately run over time by up to 15+ minutes in an attempt to keep viewers on their network. In the UK and Germany (and other countries) this sort behaviour is not tolerated.
Regards,
Derek
Im happy for folk to re-use any bits of this they like.
Here's my letter.
Quote
Dear Minister
I draw your attention to the results of today's Copyright case between Ice TV and the Nine Network.
The basic issue here is that (unlike any other modern country) Australian TV stations are claiming copyright over their programming details (EPG).
I have a personal video recorder, and am quite happy to purchase this info from Ice TV since it allows me to conveniently plan what I watch on TV, at a time of my choosing. I can't get this information for my PVR anywhere else because the commercial broadcasters don't want people like me to have it.
The Nine Network is trying to control this data, and encrypt it, so that it can only be made available on devices of their choosing. Presumably so that they can force viewers to wtach ads, and exclude any device that can skip ads.
This can't be allowed to happen. It requires government regulation to stop the potential abuse of power by the three major commercial TV networks.
The legislation required would be simple, and would be a victory for those who value the free flow of information:
1. That all digital tv broadcasters must freely provide an accurate EPG at least 7 days in advance, wihtout restriction or encryption.
2. That broadcasters must adhere to the times they advertise, rather than deliberately delaying show times to manipulate audiences.
Most other countries in the western world have similar legislation.
Without it, we run the risk of strongly funded TV networks trying to manipulate audiences by pursuing cynical litigation against smaller players such as Ice TV.
This is one David -vs- Goliath struggle that David must win.
Kind regards
etc...
The world we live in is just completely stuffed...
So now I can see we are all just going to be rooted. bottom line.
This case apparantly goes back to award damages to Nine (what a joke). The judge will no doubt award damages and legal costs probably amounting to millions to be paid by icetv. Most likely crippling icetv towards bankruptcy.
Yep I am sure another appeal can be mounted - but quiet often judges will ask for the money of damages etc to be placed in trust, while it awaits another 12 months for another appeal, thus likely to still cripple the only valid service around.
Of course, this decision will scare off all the other (inferrior) free services... leaving no guide data for Australian TV.
So we all loose out. Guide data services move to the underground and become a source of criminal fund raising... just like buying Underbelly DVD's in Victoria (LOL)
And then ch9 will save the day by taking over ownership of IceTV, obtaining all the details of the subscribers of the service and attempt to prosecute them just like the RIAA and MP3 music copyright infringements...
Then Ch9 will either just shut it all down or charge $50/week for the privlege of getting out of date / wrong time electronic TV Guides.
So do we just send a copy of the TV Week to India each week for some person to type/scan in...
Oh well the future is not looking that good eh?
I just hope somebody see's sense of all this. Have often thought of entering politics, I know the first act of parliament I would put in place would fix this once and for all and put egg on the faces of a few corporate bullies.
Geezee....
For what it's worth, my letter going to channel nein, plus copied to a number of advertisers and the minister (with appropriate covering letter)...
Quote
The Directors and Chief Executives of Channel Nine
<snip>
Dear Sirs,
I find it difficult to determine if your company is just completely out of touch with the modern age or if you are simply hell bent on self destruction. I refer, of course, to the current on-going saga of your “supposed” copyright law suit against IceTV and again have to ask... are you totally blind or just plain stupid?
My family owns a PVR – a digital set-top box with embedded hard disk and twin receivers. We do not buy newspapers, prefering to obtain our news and associated content on-line and are therefore subscribers to the IceTV Electronic Programme Guide data. We enjoy the flexibility of time-shifting our viewing to fit in with our busy personal lives, with the additional benefits of increased capacity for on-line storage, on-screen guide/information and more advanced recording features.
The use of certain software on our personal computer combined with the IceTV data permits us to record numerous programs and series without fear of missing episodes due to scheduling mistakes, alterations or late changes, by checking the data daily against our list of favourite programme titles, actors, genres and/or other attributes and then automatically setting the timers on the device without human intervention, for viewing when convenient.
As a direct result of this almost flawless recording system we have found that we are probably watching, as a family, about 30% more television than we did when we used the limited VCR and tape approach – we still rarely watch live TV, other than the news, but then again, we didn't before either.
So we are at a complete loss to understand why you should be wishing to destroy a company which is essentially helping to ensure that we, as viewers, are increasing our viewing time rather than reducing it; unless, of course, this law suit has little to do with copyright are is more about the mistakenly related subject of advert skipping.
It has been suggested for some time and in many quarters that this is the real reason for the attempt to silence IceTV – because of the misguided belief that EPG = Advert skipping... what utter rubbish! If you have been given this impression that the EPG is the sole reason for ad. skipping then you should get some new, competant, technical advisers – the humble VCR provided people with the ability to ad. skip years before the invention of the internet, never mind the EPG – it was called the fast forward button.
The humble EPG is nothing more than that... a programme guide, in electronic form, which enables users with the right equipment to make more accurate and relevant recordings, rather than relying on the less accurate and more out of date printed versions of the information. While the various website versions of the TV guide are more accurate they are still inadequate for the task currently fulfilled by the IceTV data as they require human scanning - time consuming, innefficient, ineffective and error prone. Even those which provide some degree of searching and favourites are limited in functionality and there is still the need for the human to transfer those results to the recording device.
The actions of the viewer, irrespective of the technology, will not change overnight. For ourselves, we still do sometimes ad. skip and sometimes we don't, just as we did with the old VCR. Occasionally we use the breaks to make a drink or go to the toilet or make a quick phone call and sometimes we watch the ad's so we know about forthcoming events in our locale or actually see a product we are interested in (it does happen!).
Your company should be adapting to this technology rather than trying to smother it; you could be in discussion with IceTV, learning from them rather than trying to kill them off. For example, has it even occurred to you to sell the final ten seconds of any ad. break at a higher premium since even the ad.skippers are likely to see that part as they try to find the segment start, whether on disk or tape? What about the entire concept of the ad. break, how 1970's is that? You need to start thinking outside of the box, rather than hiding within it.
You could already be providing the EPG data in ready-made form, perhaps with sponsorship messages appended to the extended information, to a company that seems to have the interest of your viewers closer to its heart than your company seem to have them. You should be embracing a company which has helped increase the number of viewers, rather than alienating them.
Had the commercial stations come up with something... anything... better than the utterly pathetic Now and Next program guide (for want of a better phrase) in the first place, IceTV would likely as not have even have got off the ground. You should be looking to them as saviours of free-to-air, commercial television rather than deperately trying to sue them and every other upstart who dares to think up something new which goes against your “tried and tested” (and boring) approach.
It was your own failure to have the foresight and desire to improve the package delivered to the digital viewer that created a void which IceTV filled, your own intransigence which threatens to make you an anachronism – a twentieth century TV station floundering in the twenty-first century content provider world, trying to survive by litigation and bullying the competition rather than coming up with new and creative ways to genuinely improve the package and their market share, in a world where the fickle viewer has so many more options and sources of content and only the best can survive.
Let me be honest, we don't watch many Nine series, just two or three perhaps (when you finally get round to (re)scheduling them), over half our weekly viewing comes from the ABC and SBS. Where you do win though is with the occasional content, such as movies and features, which get picked up by the data scanning for actors, genres and etc. - this is where you can sometimes more than double the amount of Nine viewing in our household and generally content we would not generally see, were it not for the PVR software picking it up automatically.
So what of the future? If IceTV continues but without your blessing and content, then you, and subsequently your advertisers, will lose viewers such as ourselves because your data will not be available to scan and set timers against. If IceTV is driven completely out of business, you will still lose us as viewers and suffer our antagonism as well; we shall find new sources for the SBS and ABC data and alternative sources for the lost content too, be it DVD, borrowed media or, dare I say, perhaps even downloading via torrents if all else fails, we have gone too far down the automatic recording path to be expected to go back to reading the TV guides, on-line or otherwise.
So, please, drop the bully boy image that you seem to relish so much, stop this ridiculous lawsuit which can only harm the industry in the long term and sit down with the right technical people, the IceTV people, and work our a better solution for all. Look for new ways to deliver your advertiser's messages – PVRs are here to stay, irrespective of EPG content, and as with the VCR ad. skippers will remain ad. skippers however they record their content. Adapt to the new technology and the benefits it can give you, the advertisers and the viewers, before you become so out of touch that you cannot recover.
As for encrypted EPG's? Don't waste your time, all systems can be cracked eventually these days. Anti-skipping PVRs? Yeah, right! Assuming you can actually get enough manufacturers on board, have you never heard of firmware updates? Mod. chips? The gaming industry has been fighting this losing battle since day one, just like all the copy protection schemes that have gone by the wayside. As long as there are alternatives available, you won't stop people getting their data (and content) elsewhere. In the current age, you have to live with the technology of the internet, not fight against it, or you will become irrelevant... and lose... and will your advertisers.
One final point. I am copying this letter to the Minister for Communication and all the advertisers whose products and services are featured within those channel Nine programmes that we do watch, perhaps if you won't listen to us, the humble viewer, then perhaps they can make you listen to reason – because they will suffer from the dwindling numbers too – as you stumble blindly forwards towards oblivion.
Welcome... to the real world.
Yours faithfully,
Very well put! 8)
Quote from: neilius on May 09, 2008, 11:45:07 AM
My suggestion to Ice TV is to license their software to us, not the EPG data, and modify the model so that we all can contrbute to and independently rebroadcast the EPG info. If the data is coming from several thousand different places, and all Ice TV is doing is licensing their own software, then there's nothing Nein can do about it.
I've been playing and researching the idea of a P2P data collection mechanism around in my mind from the moment I read this news, sadly it is not an area I have any knowledge of or experience in programming in... but that can change!
I whole hearted agree especially with the bit about increasing program viewing. I would simply not watch a lot of TV because I have a life and choose to record programs for later viewing which I would otherwise miss but admit I do skip through the commercial breaks. I have for the most part seen at real time speed all of the ads broadcast on my watched stations and recognise them somewhat subliminally as they flash past whilst queuing to my recorded program. Quite often if the advertisement has new or unrecognised content I do actually rewind and see what its all about. Repeatedly viewing advertisments does not make me any more likely to show increased interest in the advertised product and therefore queuing the commercial only cuts into the opportunity for me to engage in a personal channel nein boardroom meeting (toilet break). ;D
Justice Bennett will be handing down her judgment today regarding the second round of this legal battle (Nine's Appeal). Following a meeting with our legal team shortly afterwards , we will make a formal statement via our website as soon as possible.
Unfortunately at this point in time we are unable to make any comment or discuss the likely outcome publicly.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you all and say that we greatly appreciate everyone's ongoing support.
As most of you know, we have already seeked to have the matter heard in front of the High Court despite what may be decided by the Courts today. We will continue to fight for the right for an independant third party EPG provider (such as IceTV), to remain available to Australian consumers as is the case in many other countries around the world.
Once again, we greatly appreciate your support and thank you for taking the time to write to the Authorities regarding the matter.
Please continue to check the News section of our website for any official announcements.
Cheers,
Matt
IceTV
Is it just me or is everyone affected. Channel Nine is now missing from the guide on the web. And, after a reboot, so it's also been removed from the widget. :(
More information can now be found at http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/websupport.cgi?op=show_faq&faq_id=117&faq_cat_id=2
So I read the news section... a bit of lack of detail though...
But what makes me angry is the way this has been communicated to the 'loyal' followers of icetv.
As usual - no reall announcement - just turn off the service... causing hundreds of people to start tinkering - why have I lost ch9... hmmm... lets get the guide data again... nope not fixed... Oh sh*t has the MS bug returned in loosing channels / guide data - as we just had a major patch only days ago...
So after tinkering.. for awhile - is it just me or others... Log onto the forums - found a couple of comments - so I know its not me... and then a link to the news item...
So yep I am angry ch9 has done this, but what makes me more angry is the way icetv has neglected its user base;
- ie. they waited until complaints occured in the forum of where is my ch9 before posting the link to the news
- icetv knows everyone's email address - it may have been nice to send out a little apology email to tell you about the issue, and resolution, and hope that it will be fixed... Nope instead email is used for promoting and selling services - not to advise customers of a major issue.
Loosing faith here guys... customer service appears to be falling... hope the phone has been busy tonight guys...
I know my guide was working at 6:30pm, but shortly after that, my machine did a guide update, and now I have lost ch9 - gee if I had of known, I could have turned the update off, and limped home for a few days while you sort out the mess.... Now I have to consider doing heaps of manual recordings, or abandon icetv for a freebie that still operates.
Reckon others will be starting a thread soon on compensation....
QuoteNow I have to consider doing heaps of manual recordings, or abandon icetv for a freebie that still operates.
We apologise for any inconvenience not having IceTV Guide data for Channel Nine last night and this morning may have caused some customers. This problem is being fixed as we speak and you will already start to see scheduling information available for Ch9 as of this afternoon if you download the IceTV Guide again now.
Yesterday, the Full Court of the Federal Court made certain orders as part of the Appeal Judgment that required IceTV to immediately delete all scheduling information (ie time & title) that we had for Channel Nine programming in our database from Dec 2005 to today (June 25th). We followed the instructions of the injunction made by the Full Court as many of you noticed.
For those interested, Justice Bennett's rulings can be found http://esearch.fedcourt.gov.au/Esearch?showDoc=25553926 (http://esearch.fedcourt.gov.au/Esearch?showDoc=25553926).
IceTV has lodged an application for special leave to appeal to the High Court of Australia from the decision of the Full Court.
In the meantime and as always, we are committed to providing the best possible service we can.
As we have suggested in our News / Blog section, we will provide any further information we can regarding this matter, if and when we are permitted to do so.
Once again, we apologise in advance for any inconvenience this temporary overnight disruption in our regular coverage of Channel Nine's programming within the IceTV EPG may have caused some customers.
We suggest that for the coming days, you update the IceTV Guide regularly (ie more than once per day) as we replace the guide data for Channel Nine with fresh listings.
We greatly appreciate your support and thank you for taking the time to write to the Authorities regarding the matter. We are also making formal requests to all the TV Networks to permit IceTV or grant licensed access to reproduce their weekly television listings within our IceTV Guide. We will notify everyone if anything substantial eventuates.
Regards,
IceTV
Me thinks you lie....
Quote - 'This problem is being fixed as we speak and you will already start to see scheduling information available for Ch9 '
About an hour after this statement - a refresh of the guide data for Melbourne - and nothing for Ch9.
My concern is also about stability, who knows when, later today, next week or next month... when the police come and raid, or everything is exhausted - suddenly ch9 data disapears without a warning...
Gee a Tivo is starting to look good again - even at $700 and available next month - at least no ongoing guide data subscriptions...
Quote from: impact on June 24, 2008, 10:11:50 PM
Reckon others will be starting a thread soon on compensation....
Why? I imagine most reasonable Ice users would want nothing to do with it. It would seem they are fighting a desperate battle at the moment, and you want to take issue with them because Nein gained an injunction which forced Ice to remove their scheduling data?
Quote from: impact on June 25, 2008, 08:26:49 AM
Me thinks you lie....
Quote - 'This problem is being fixed as we speak and you will already start to see scheduling information available for Ch9 '
About an hour after this statement - a refresh of the guide data for Melbourne - and nothing for Ch9.
My concern is also about stability, who knows when, later today, next week or next month... when the police come and raid, or everything is exhausted - suddenly ch9 data disapears without a warning...
Gee a Tivo is starting to look good again - even at $700 and available next month - at least no ongoing guide data subscriptions...
Gee, you wait a WHOLE hour for them to reconstruct their guides nationally before laying into them. My, you are generous!
You're aware, of course, that you can't skip over ads on a TiVO.
Quote from: mattk on June 25, 2008, 07:39:18 AM
...
Yesterday, the Full Court of the Federal Court made certain orders as part of the Appeal Judgment that required IceTV to immediately delete all scheduling information (ie time & title) that we had for Channel Nine programming in our database from Dec 2005 to today (June 25th). We followed the instructions of the injunction made by the Full Court as many of you noticed.
...
Was IceTV permitted to retain a backup copy, at least until the appeal against the injunction was heard?
Anyway, I'm now seeing WIN in my widget.
Quote from: impact on June 25, 2008, 08:26:49 AM
Me thinks you lie....
Quote - 'This problem is being fixed as we speak and you will already start to see scheduling information available for Ch9 '
About an hour after this statement - a refresh of the guide data for Melbourne - and nothing for Ch9.
My concern is also about stability, who knows when, later today, next week or next month... when the police come and raid, or everything is exhausted - suddenly ch9 data disapears without a warning...
Gee a Tivo is starting to look good again - even at $700 and available next month - at least no ongoing guide data subscriptions...
Given the circumstances we are acting accordingly and doing the best we possible can to return our service to the normal high levels of standards. We have full intention in meeting the Full Court's orders with respect to our methodology for compiling Nine's weekly schedule and are doing so as we speak.
We suggest that for the coming days, you update the IceTV Guide regularly (ie more than once per day) as we replace the guide data for Channel Nine with fresh listings. You should see data for Channel Nine appearing for at lest the next few days in your region. Please be aware however that all regions at the moment are following Channel Nine Sydney and that we will endeavour to accurately reflect each region's individual schedule nationally as soon as possible.
Once again, we apologise in advance for any inconvenience this temporary overnight disruption in our regular coverage of Channel Nine's programming within the IceTV EPG has caused some customers.
We have once again formally requested certain TV Networks to permit or grant licensed access to IceTV to reproduce their weekly television listings within our IceTV Guide. It is our understanding that similar agreements must have been made for services such as TiVo to provide thier EPG information. We hope to hear from them shortly and learn more of the requirements they may have in order for IceTV to do so. We will notify everyone if anything substantial eventuates.
Regards,
IceTV
Quote from: mattk on June 25, 2008, 10:33:25 AM
You should see data for Channel Nine appearing for at lest the next few days in your region. You should see data for Channel Nine appearing for at lest the next few days in your region.
Nine data is currently being generated for the period Wednesday through Friday for Adelaide metro areas.
From the ruling you provided it appears that there was a date specified "up to" for deletion. I take it that is the reason you are publishing data again (i.e. the ruling has now, effectively, been completed)?
QuoteFrom the ruling you provided it appears that there was a date specified "up to" for deletion. I take it that is the reason you are publishing data again (i.e. the ruling has now, effectively, been completed)?
Section 5 of the Full Court's ruling was as follows;
"...delete forthwith from any television program schedules (of which it has electronic copies including in the IceTV Database) all Nine Program Time and Title Information (but not the program and episode title for any of the applicant’s television programs) entered from 1 December 2005 to the date of this order."The full list of orders made by the Full Court of the Federal Court can be found here (http://esearch.fedcourt.gov.au/Esearch?showDoc=25553926).
We have complied with the orders made yesterday by the Full Court of the Federal Court and hence have started to provide scheduling information once again for Channel Nine by methods which strictly comply to the Full Court's findings.
IceTV has lodged an application for special leave to appeal to the High Court of Australia from the decision of the Full Court.
We have also made further requests to certain TV Networks to permit or grant licensed access to IceTV to reproduce their weekly television listings within our IceTV Guide. It is our understanding that similar agreements must have been made for services such as TiVo to provide thier EPG information.
As we have said previously, we hope to hear from these TV Networks shortly to learn of any requirements they may have in order for IceTV to do so. We will notify everyone if anything substantial eventuates.
Regards,
Matt
IceTV
Quote from: bruiser333 on June 25, 2008, 08:29:14 AM
Quote from: impact on June 24, 2008, 10:11:50 PM
Reckon others will be starting a thread soon on compensation....
Why? I imagine most reasonable Ice users would want nothing to do with it. It would seem they are fighting a desperate battle at the moment, and you want to take issue with them because Nein gained an injunction which forced Ice to remove their scheduling data?
I certainly have no intention asking for compensation, and I do understand the reason the guide had to me removed, but I must say we could and should have been notified. That is my only quibble. As someone said, IceTV does have our email addresses, so a short email can't be that hard. The email wouldn't have had to give any info that may impede the court case, just to let us know that until further notice, the Nine guide will be removed.
There is a nice easy fix with all of this ...
No Nine Tv guide= We dont watch Channel nine.
:)
I hope that makes them happy !
That may not be far from the truth. When we were using the iQ for Foxtel and they didn't have the programme guides for 7 and 10 we just didn't watch those channels. It wasn't any form of protest, we just didn't bother - we had programme info for the other channels so we watched those instead.
Unfortunately I doubt there's enough IceTV subscribers that if channel 9 would notice if we all stopped watching. :(
not much worth watching on Nein these days anyway!!
Quote from: djos on June 25, 2008, 11:24:44 PM
not much worth watching on Nein these days anyway!!
I don't really pay much attention to which channels my timers are on... so I just went through all 33 timers that I have set for the next week... Most were on Ten. Then there were a couple on each SBS, ABC and Seven. With only one on Nein. And I really wouldn't care if it didn't record at all (David Attenborough: Bears - Spy in the Woods).
I'm sure at other times during the year that there may be something on nein that I would like to record... but if I don't know that it is on then I won't miss not recording it.
Nein Guide Data is back in ICE Guide! ;D
Quotewe could and should have been notified. That is my only quibble. As someone said, IceTV does have our email addresses, so a short email can't be that hard. The email wouldn't have had to give any info that may impede the court case, just to let us know that until further notice, the Nine guide will be removed.
We apologise for any inconvenience this process has caused some users. We completely understand some of your frustrations but unfortunately, although we were somewhat prepared for the Full Court's, we were advised at the time not to make any form of public comment or notification. I am sure most of you can appreciate this given the circumstances.
We will be sending out an email to all users shortly regarding coverage of Channel Nine's weekly program listings and that of it's regional affiliates. We are doing our best to keep everyone informed, whilst trying to resume our expected service standards.
We expect to have full listings available again shortly for all regions with the exception of "N/A" notifications, which will appear within the IceTV Guide in times that we are unable to cleary advise you of what show will be being broadcasted. As soon as we know, these notifications will be replaced with the applicable program.
If you notice anything incorrect with our coverage of Nine’s programming or for any other Channel in your region, please don’t hesitate to contact a member of our Guide Team via (http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/webpage.cgi?op=show_contact (http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/webpage.cgi?op=show_contact)).
Once again, we greatly appreciate everyone's support and continued patience during this time. Rest assured we will continue to keep everyone as up-to-date as possible regarding this matter and as frequently as we can.
Regards,
MattK
IceTV
Quote from: ackbar33 on June 25, 2008, 07:57:03 PM
There is a nice easy fix with all of this ...
No Nine Tv guide= We dont watch Channel nine.
I hope that makes them happy !
I phoned them in Perth today and told them just that... that their legal action had directly resulted in the loss of our entire family as viewers since we rely totally on the EPG from Ice. I'm considering phoning the other Nein offices too, just to make sure to get the message across.
I also went through five old recordings we had (off sick) of The Dead Zone and noted forty five companies/entities in Perth who will be receiving letters explaining why their adverts will no longer be reaching us as we won't be watching Nein any more.
Anyone else who will also not be watching Nein, I would suggest do the same to keep the advertisers in the loop of why their advertising on Nein is not necessarily as cost-effective as before, purely as a service to them.
Quote from: mattk on June 26, 2008, 12:18:35 PMWe apologise for any inconvenience this process has caused some users. We completely understand some of your frustrations but unfortunately, although we were somewhat prepared for the Full Court's, we were advised at the time not to make any form of public comment or notification. I am sure most of you can appreciate this given the circumstances.
More power to your elbow fellas, when will Nein realise that they're hurting themselves as much as anyone else.
Oh, and if any "user" submissions are required/beneficial for any subsequent action, please feel free to contact me (and, I suspect, any other user on the forums!).
Quote from: mattk on June 25, 2008, 11:27:27 AM
We have also made further requests to certain TV Networks to permit or grant licensed access to IceTV to reproduce their weekly television listings within our IceTV Guide. It is our understanding that similar agreements must have been made for services such as TiVo to provide thier EPG information.
I think I shall also be writing to two other commercial networks and pointing out to them the likely result of them stopping Ice from providing EPG data for their network's programming, namely the loss of us as viewers. Might also write to some more advertisers too...
I'm not sure of the effectiveness of people who record programs, in part for the ability to skip ads, telling advertisers that they're going to stop watching their ads.
Quote from: prl on June 27, 2008, 09:40:44 AM
I'm not sure of the effectiveness of people who record programs, in part for the ability to skip ads, telling advertisers that they're going to stop watching their ads.
That is the very flaw in Nine's argument, the (tenuous at best) link between an EPG and skipping ad's. We don't record in order to skip ad's, we record because we can't/don't want to watch the programmes at the time they are broadcast. It is because we can record a programme by
any mechanism (PVR, PC, VCR, etc.) which enables us to skip ad's, it has nothing to do with the source of the schedule data - that simply enables us to perform more accurate recordings of shows we watch rather than relying on out of date printed guides or having to scan the web daily "by hand".
As it happens we DO watch ad's (yes, really!), in order to keep up to date on pending shows and the occasional new product - but we only tend to watch them once or twice until the information is familiar and then we skip them. Rather than jump the full 2.5 minutes or so of an ad. break, we tend to 30 second skip them - if we see something new, we'll tend to watch it until we deem it important or irrelevant and then skip or not accordingly. After all, what is the point of watching the same old reality or game show ad's when you don't ever watch the show, it's almost negative marketing if you have to watch because it annoys you all the more.
So we consider there IS value in letting an advertiser know that the actions of a TV station are undermining their potential advertising audience.
One last thing... If we contact advertisers, how did we identify that they are an advertiser...? I guess we must have... watched the ad.!!
Quote from: OzRob on June 25, 2008, 09:02:43 AM
Quote from: impact on June 25, 2008, 08:26:49 AM
Me thinks you lie....
Quote - 'This problem is being fixed as we speak and you will already start to see scheduling information available for Ch9 '
About an hour after this statement - a refresh of the guide data for Melbourne - and nothing for Ch9.
My concern is also about stability, who knows when, later today, next week or next month... when the police come and raid, or everything is exhausted - suddenly ch9 data disapears without a warning...
Gee a Tivo is starting to look good again - even at $700 and available next month - at least no ongoing guide data subscriptions...
Gee, you wait a WHOLE hour for them to reconstruct their guides nationally before laying into them. My, you are generous!
You're aware, of course, that you can't skip over ads on a TiVO.
I'm afraid I have to agree with Impact here. It's not about giving them time to fix what they took away, it's about the fact that they chose not to notify anyone before pulling the plug on the data. You have to remember that plenty of people will have spent quite a bit of time trying to fix what they may have perceived as a MCE problem and potentially could have damaged other things. I certainly sympathise with Ice in their battle and they have my full support but it really does annoy me that they never seem to learn when it comes to keeping subscribers in the loop.
Quote from: philzgr8 on June 30, 2008, 02:15:38 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree with Impact here. It's not about giving them time to fix what they took away, it's about the fact that they chose not to notify anyone before pulling the plug on the data.
If you took the time to read all the relevant posts and news items at the time this was happening, you would have seen that Ice's legal advice was to not to post ANY information regarding the real reason for the removal of the data. The following is a quote from the e-mail that was issued...
"Acting under legal advice, we were prevented from fully informing our customers as to the reasons for this lack of guide data. We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused our customers."
Given the true nature of the reason for the data not being produced, I think people should think twice before ranting about a lack of information - Ice are trying hard in trying circumstances, cut them a little slack!
IceTV has been sucessfully granted special leave to appeal the recent decision made by the Full Court of the Federal Court to the High Court of Australia.
The court date for the High Court appeal has now been set for October 16-17 this year.
Check the News (http://www.icetv.com.au/news/?p=210) section of our website for any further information.
Regards,
mattk
P.S. The hearing will be in Canberra.
Quote from: pvogel on September 25, 2008, 12:53:53 PM
P.S. The hearing will be in Canberra.
I have been at the High Court today, my report of the day's hearing of IceTV vs Nine is here: http://vogelross.com.au/vrblog/
Peter "so sue me" Vogel
Quote from: pvogel on October 16, 2008, 06:49:08 PM
I have been at the High Court today, my report of the day's hearing of IceTV vs Nine is here: http://vogelross.com.au/vrblog/
Peter "so sue me" Vogel
Peter
Fantastic blog!
Thanks for the report.
Neil
How long does it usually take for the court to render a a decision ???
Quote from: machunter46 on October 18, 2008, 12:48:33 PM
How long does it usually take for the court to render a a decision ???
Many months.
I've added yesterday's hearing to my blog BTW: www.vogelross.com.au/vrblog
Peter
For those interested, a copy of the High Court transcripts from last week's Appeal can be read here;
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/HCATrans/2008/356.html
We remain confident in our position and what transpired in court last week in Canberra. We will notify everyone as soon as there is some news to share regarding the appeal, however it is anyone's guess as to how long it may take the judges to come to a decision.
The original judgment took around 8 months, while the appeal only took 2-3 months.
We thank everyone once again for their continued support.
Regards,
matt
Best of luck. I really hope you argued your case well, reading the past transcripts I was a bit worried that you weren't arguing the point with the right "spin" (based on some great IP/copyright websites I have read since your case started about how killing competition and then withholding information is not what copyright is all about). I suppose it depends on what point you have to defend which is a shame, the judges really need the full picture about what is going on here and I just don't think this happens in the court environment.
It is a shame that government broadcast licencing doesn't include the provision for (free?) public access to time & title schedules.. mind you, this might not help you as they may argue that it is free, and because you are charging for it, you are doing something wrong.. but I think the spin should always be that you are value adding on top of the standard time & title, including actor/genre flags, consistent titles (usually :-)), repeat flags, classification information, flagging favourite shows, displaying the data in useful environments for both the mobile environment, the iphone app, the widget and the web etc etc etc etc etc.
I can't believe Nine is spinning the revenue loss due to advert skipping all over again. EPG is never about advert skipping, it is about providing a convenient scheme to know when your favourite shows are on. Will people advert skip because of it, sure, but then people have been advert skipping for as long as TV has been around, by walking out the room during those monotonous things, or FF with the VCR in the 80s-2000s, or flicking to ABC during those times etc.
This is the modern times, people don't work 9-5 so much these days, and can't watch their favourite shows at the broadcast times, so the only way of solving this is to know when the show is starting to "timeshift" the show to a later time/date. We can do this without ICE or EPG, but being busy times for most, we don't always have the time to go thru the printed guide to find our shows (ok, this now extends to the lame EIT broadcasted info and YourTV, all of which are a step in the right direction but still not good enough).
I really sincerely hope the outcome is better than the current situation you have of putting "N/A Channel Nine" for every second entry in the EPG.
Regards
Can someone please decipher the legal mumbo jumbo here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/HCATrans/2008/358.html and give a summary on how the court case went on day 2?
Mr Vogel's blog didn't have his usual quick summary of the days proceedings either last time I checked.
Regards
Quote from: tonymy01 on October 27, 2008, 11:24:29 AM
Can someone please decipher the legal mumbo jumbo here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/HCATrans/2008/358.html and give a summary on how the court case went on day 2?
Mr Vogel's blog didn't have his usual quick summary of the days proceedings either last time I checked.
Regards
My summary of day two is here:
http://vogelross.com.au/vrblog/?p=36
Peter Vogel
Hmm, that is strange, I did read that page. Nothing appears conclusive, and thus for some reason I read your summary as taking place after the proceedings of day 1, with day 2 not summarised yet due to nothing really eventuating day 2 it appears :-)
I guess looking at your blog, you only describe the proceedings of the high court case in one discussion, when I thought it was going to be a day by day blow of the court progress.
Regards
Day 1 summary is here http://vogelross.com.au/vrblog/?p=33
Day 2 is here: http://vogelross.com.au/vrblog/?p=36
Historically, judgements of the Full Bench take between 3-6 months.
Peter Vogel