Features - Audio Described and Subtitles

[Ian_AW]

G'day,

More and more programs offer Audio Described for people with conditions like macular degeneration. Does the IceBox System provide for this when watching a live program or when replaying a recording? Is it something available on Kodi and TVHeadEnd?

I understand that subtitles in recordings is being worked on. Any idea when this might be available?

Thanks.

[prl]

Audio Described is just another audio stream on a channel. If you can select different audio streams somehow, you can select Audio Described. Whether you can make it the default audio stream is another question.

[Ian_AW]

Thanks on the Audio Described.

Any info on subtitles in recordings :D

[IanL-S]

You could check out this link, hoefully works with IceBox Kodi installation: https://firetvsticks.com/how-to-change-audio-stream-in-kodi/

Ian

[Keith]

I'm very keen to have subtitles available on TV recordings also....

[Keith]

Has there been an update for IceBox to show subtitles in recordings?

I have not seen anything on the forums or the IceBox setup page and it's 2 months since this issue was last raised.

I have subtitles turned on in "Accessibility".

Thanks,
Keith

[IanL-S]

As far as I am aware there is nothing to report.

It is my understanding that the issue is not with the IceTV add-in but with either Kodi or TVHeadend add-in, which means that it is much more difficult for the IceBox development team to address. My semi-informed guess is that it is with TVHeadend which does not seem to be able to cope with the data not being in a separate file.

Ian

[raymondjpg]

As far as I am aware there is nothing to report.

It is my understanding that the issue is not with the IceTV add-in but with either Kodi or TVHeadend add-in, which means that it is much more difficult for the IceBox development team to address. My semi-informed guess is that it is with TVHeadend which does not seem to be able to cope with the data not being in a separate file.

Ian

I proposed a solution to this back in January https://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=7365.msg38073#msg38073.

I know it works, I tested it. With BYOB software that is.

You are right to postulate that the issue is with TVHeadend, but it is nothing to do with subtitle data being in a separate file. Subtitles are embedded as closed captions (my understanding) in the transport stream files. However, the inability of MKVToolNix GUI to parse the subtitles from .ts files created by TVHeadend suggests some non standard format. As I said, I have no idea what that might be due to.

Anyway to get back to IceBox, there are two Recording profiles, Default and IceTV. Changes to just one or other profile sometimes have no effect, I haven't picked apart why that might be, so if I want to make changes such as Stream profile or padding, I do them in both profiles just to be sure.

As far as I can tell there is no reason why IceTV cannot change one or other or both profiles in software that they push for IceBox or BYOB. As to whether or not there may be some reason why changing Stream profile from pass to matroska is not such a good idea, there may be one but I don't know of it.

[IanL-S]

My understanding is that Matroska MKV is merely a container, the MPEG2 or H.264 ts stream file is merely placed in the container, the codec uses is not changed.

It appears easy to change what happens when a recording is made, the default appears to be "pass" and one of the alternatives is Matroska MKV. This suggests that the recording is a standard *.ts file.


You would need to change both the default profile and the IceTV profile if you edit timers on the IceBox, as the timer profile appears to change from IceTV to Default.


I will try this with my BYOB IceBox and report back. You need to reload the timers for this to be activated.

[raymondjpg]

It appears easy to change what happens when a recording is made, the default appears to be "pass" and one of the alternatives is Matroska MKV. This suggests that the recording is a standard *.ts file.

Try this:

1. Take a .ts recording with closed captions from a BW PVR and run it through MKVToolNix GUI, then play with a third party player such as MPC-HC. Subtitles will be visible (if switched on).
2. Do the same with a .ts recording with closed captions from IceBox. Subtitles will NOT be visible (if switched on).

I don't know why this might be, but it suggests that the .ts file formats in the two cases are not the same. As to which of the two .ts file formats might be classed as non-standard, Bunkus might have something to say about that, but my reading is that what works through MKVToolNix GUI would be more likely to be standard and that which does not work would be more likely to be non-standard.

Caveat: this was with limited testing at the time. It may be that with more testing the .ts file format from IceBox proves to be no different in behaviour to that from a BW PVR.

[IanL-S]

Using the raw recordings from IceBox and Beyonwiz V2 playback in VideoRedo displays cc/teletext in the same way. MediaInfo gives identical information for the cc/teletext. This may not be a fair comparison due to the enhanced abilities of VideoRedo.

This obviously requires more testing. I have a timer set on IceBox1 (standard ts), IceBox2 (mkv), and Beyonwiz (standard ts) for Antiques Roadshow and will do some more testing tomorrow.

One thing that occurs to me, is there may be an issue with the build of MKVToolNix GUI you are using. I wonder if there is any point converting the *.ts files to mkv using VideoRedo and the testing those two files?

[raymondjpg]

Using the raw recordings from IceBox and Beyonwiz V2 playback in VideoRedo displays cc/teletext in the same way. MediaInfo gives identical information for the cc/teletext. This may not be a fair comparison due to the enhanced abilities of VideoRedo.

That may well be so, and not only MediaInfo but also TSDoctor v2 does not appear to have any difficulty opening and analysing .ts files from TVHeadend. However the inability of MKVToolNix GUI to parse the subtitles from these .ts files, along with the apparent inability of splitters to carve out the subtitle stream from a matroska file created with TVHeadend, suggest something non-standard with TVHeadend's implementation of the transport stream recording format and its matroska container. That is not a criticism, more an observation that it needs to be acknowledged and worked around or worked upon.

One thing that occurs to me, is there may be an issue with the build of MKVToolNix GUI you are using. I wonder if there is any point converting the *.ts files to mkv using VideoRedo and the testing those two files?

I keep MKVToolNix GUI up to date, and just confirmed the issue of non-appearance of subtitles in matroska files created from TVHeadend .ts files played in MPC-HC, with the latest version.

I don't see what point there would be converting the *.ts files to mkv using VideoRedo and then testing those two files. As a practical solution that would require investment in VideoRedo that right now is unavailable, and MKVToolNix GUI is free and open for anyone to use. Although subtitles are not visible in TVHeadend matroska files played in MPC-HC, they become visible when the TVHeadend matroska files are remuxed with MKVToolNix GUI. If one's preference is for the .ts recording format, muxing to matroska with MKVToolNix GUI, then demuxing the resultant mkv with gMKVExtractGUI, will give you an external .srt file that can be renamed to be playable by your third party media player.

[IanL-S]

There are two things that seem to be getting confused here:

• The ability to get the IceBox to display cc/subtitles
• The ability to display subtitles when playing an IceBox recording on another device, such as a PC.

To date I have not been able to achieve the first, but have mostly been successful playing files with cc/subtitles on my Windows 11 PC - I have done this successfully with VCL player and VideoRedo.

In most important issue is getting cc/subtitles to display when playing back recordings on the IceBox. The second issue is only relevant to that issue if it helps explain the problem that the IceBox is having. At this stage I am not convinced that is the case.

While the IceBox will play recordings from my V2, it again fails to find the cc/subtitles in the recoding files. This supports the proposition that there is a problem with the way Kodi/TVHeadend identify the cc/subtitles in the recordings, rather than a problem with the recordings themselves.

[raymondjpg]

There are two things that seem to be getting confused here:

• The ability to get the IceBox to display cc/subtitles
• The ability to display subtitles when playing an IceBox recording on another device, such as a PC.

I made that distinction in my first post on this subject https://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=7365.msg38073#msg38073

To date I have not been able to achieve the first, but have mostly been successful playing files with cc/subtitles on my Windows 11 PC - I have done this successfully with VCL player and VideoRedo.

I have confirmed today that changing the stream profile from pass to matroska will give you recordings where subtitles are selectable on playback in the IceBox (at least BYOB implementation). You can check this yourself by starting a live recording then going to the Recordings tab to play back. It may be necessary to restart the IceBox before doing this. I do it routinely after making changes to config.

The issue of whether or not timers will pick up on the output format change is a separate one.

In most important issue is getting cc/subtitles to display when playing back recordings on the IceBox. The second issue is only relevant to that issue if it helps explain the problem that the IceBox is having. At this stage I am not convinced that is the case.

If by problem you mean the ability of IceBox to display subtitles on recordings, I think that one is covered off.

While the IceBox will play recordings from my V2, it again fails to find the cc/subtitles in the recoding files. This supports the proposition that there is a problem with the way Kodi/TVHeadend identify the cc/subtitles in the recordings, rather than a problem with the recordings themselves.

That's an interesting one, but I think reinforces the notion that TVHeadend can only recognise and interpret its own flavour of .ts file. My guess, without testing it, is that IceBox would have no trouble coping with V2 files muxed into a matroska container. I have just successfully used the IceBox video feature to play back a matroska file downloaded from the internet, displaying subtitles.

[IanL-S]

I have set up my BYOB IceBox to use the matroska when I loaded the latest beta build. Not yet had a chance to confirm that it works as you say it does. If so that would be good news (I think).

On reflection, it is correct that there is no point in "converting" the *.ts file to matroska using VideoRedo, as it merely places the content of the ts stream in the matroska container.