Guide screwups (SBS and 7) need to be addressed

[timble]

Hi Daniel,

Spoke to you last week about the server 500 error message and at the same time we spoke of the losing channels issue.

Unfortunately, the problem isn't related to changing channels from their default channel order. I think it's realted to PID and stations changing the name that's embedded in the data stream.

For example. When I did my last system scan, some two weeks ago, channel 3 would appear as "SBS." ie: the default name that appears after channel scan.

Monday morning, notice guide is haywire. SBS on channel 3 has gone but other SBS Channels eg: digital radio have suddenly appeared in place of Prime, SC Ten etc. It's totally screwed up.

So, I rescan and notice that Channel 3 now appears as "SBS Digital 1". ie: the default name that appears after channel scan.

I'm sure it's this discrepancy, channel 3 changing from "SBS" to "SBS Digital 1" that is causing problems.

I know other people also have issues with Seven/Prime. I'm in Newcastle and it's only SBS that's the problem.

As you know from the xpmediacenter forum, this is a widespread problem and it's getting a lot of people offside. (Both with Vista and Ice.) I know you mentioned that your system has been stable for a month, but this isn't what's happening out in the community. I'm sure you have some contacts at Microsoft, and I think it's time to get them on the case.

IceTV and Vista MC are great combo but this is a serious issue and has the potential to really stifle Vista Media Center takeup.

I have 3 Vista MCs and will monitor closely over next few weeks, to try and find more clues.

Thanks again for your time,


Tim Farrell

[ajbcs]

Is this being followed up?

I and many other users are losing Seven (7) and it's being replaced with several other Seven channels (7 Digital 1,2,3 and guide).

It's very annoying...

If the guide data matched the scanned channel names, when Seven changed over the guide data would stay with the channel (this would be a good temporary fix)

[s3070416]

I'm consistently experiencing the same problem with SBS on Vista in Canberra. Any work around would be greatly appreciated.

[impact]

Its not an Icetv problem... it occurs with any of our epg providers for dvb-t users... Is there some kind of pattern? Maybe or maybe not... It happens at different times for differing users, and it does not happen at all for a large number of users....

Hence - if it was a station changing pids or something like that - it should happen to everyone at the same time... Yet for me, the problem occurs on a Saturday, and others a Thursday... I get the problem on a Sat/Sun/Mon and then nothing for a week - others get it 3 times a day...

I know I do not get the problem if I am not connected to the LAN/ Internet... but thats too inconveniant... Each theory we have had was shot down in testing so far... ie. suggesting the names in the EPG data should change and is the cause - apparanlty not true....

The only test I have not seen anyone do - mainly because it is inconveniant again... Does this problem occur if you do not use any EPG data set up at all... Might have to find a machine and try this one That would be interesting to know !!

Lets not shoot Icetv for - its their responsibility to fix it - and I know you have not been doing it, but it is really out of their control and hands - we need MS to recognise the problem and have it addressed asap.


So what have I done, finally got before and after images of the internal MCE stuff... data saved from the initial scan, where everything is nice, and data after everything is stuffed up... And a few steps in between - I have sent this off to 'friendly-foes' in Redmond who have agreed to look into it - maybe we might get somewhere... maybe not...

Over at http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/vista-media-center-software/17078-loosing-channels-guide-disappearing-icetv-vista-possibly-also-mce2005-3.html#post135632 I have detailed a little more about what I did, and have also included some screen shots that help illustrate the problem for those not quite familiar with what an annoying little SH@#*$ of a thing it has become!!!

[timble]

Yeah, Ice need to quiz Microsoft. It's in both their interests to have this fixed asap as it's turning people off Vista Media Center, which is real shame.

[Blackdog]

I too am experiencing the problem of the channel 7 guide going out of wack, as per my post at meadiacentre .com
"I only experience the problem with channel 7.I run VMCE ICE/Pimp(2.0.0.6). I have found that if you select one of the channels that has reappeared with out touching anything, and you then hit the guide button the guide will right itself. Sometimes a reboot fixes it.
Its annoying considering that XPMCE it was a rare occurrence but VMCE seems to do it every couple of weeks.
I have some M$ updates waiting to install i might try those and update Ice/Pimp to the newer version.
p.s I had also stopped the update service when i set Ice up in the originally."

[Shane]

Hi everyone,

Thought I'd update this here as well... I posted to Jessica Zahn from MS Redmond in her "Ask Jessica" forums over at The Green Button.

Her response is as follows:

"Do you know who in Redmond the Aussies are talking to?

It does sound to me like our background scanning could be causing a problem by dis-associating channels from guide data when we scan information about the channels. I can follow up with whoever here is already working on this - is it possible for you to ask who it is on my team? (I'm guessing my team...if it's not, that would be even weirder.)"

I've updated her with info on who we've contacted so far, and I'll keep this thread updated as things progress.

Regards,
Shane.

[impact]

Just a quick update - the logging I have been doing with Microsoft over the last week or so - is showing something of interest...

The logfile is definately showing that background scanning IS occuring between 6-6:30pm each night, despite all the hacks to turn things off...

Now so far, with logging on, I have had no Guide issues, so hopefully the guide will stuff up tomorrow as per scheduled, and the log file may finally give Microsoft some useful information to get this problem fixed.

I am still working with my contacts at MS, Jessica as mentioned in the post above by Shane, has not made any further contact - despite my sending her a huge amount of information and getting her and my contact talking together...

Hopefully we are a huge step closer to fixing the problem... I'll keep you informed.

[kjfarrell]

Just to show the seriousness of the issue, I also am loosing SBS 3 and gaining unwanted channels. 

[kjfarrell]

Any updates?

[cbo100]

I would love to hear an update on this, but for what it's worth, I have this bit of info to add:

I previously got the problem twice where SBS on Channel 3 would disappear and 2-3 other SBS radio/SBS2 channels would appear. Channel 7 never had a problem.

Last week when that happened for the second time, I decided to try a different SBS channel (one of the ones that appeared instead of No 3). So I hid No. 3 and enabled No. 31 with the SBS guide and theres been no problems since then with SBS.

Until yesterday, when channel 7 decided to disappear and replace itself with 5-6 other channel 7s. So maybe it could be related to which No.  of the channel you decide to leave enabled when you go to hide unused channels?

I'm in Sydney and previously I was using:

2 - ABC
3 - SBS
7
9
10
21 - ABC2

Last week I switched to:

2 - ABC
7
9
10
21 - ABC2
31 - SBS

Which seems to have stopped the SBS problem and replaced it with the 7 problem.

So I'm going to try putting Seven on 71 and see what that does. And another thing that might help is that the problem always happens at around 10.30pm but it can be any day (Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday so far)

[philzgr8]

Ok I would like to say this to the people here at IceTV. I am now into my third subscription period with IceTV and I had planned to move from 3 month to annual subscriptions on my next renewal but I am now rethinking. Yes I know it has been said that the issue with the guide screwing up is not the fault of IceTV and I'm not disagreeing with that. What I do want responded to is this: As a long time user of XPMCE and with the benefit of experience I deferred my move to Vista knowing that there could be problems. One of my main criteria was that I must have a working and reliable EPG otherwise the move was definitely not worthwhile for me. OK so I waited until Ice announced that they had a working solution for Vista and not just a beta. With most of my other concerns now addressed I decided about a week and a half ago to move to Vista in the belief that all of the problems had been resolved. Now having relied on Ice's statements about Vista compatibility I find that I do not have a relieable EPG and as far as I'm concerned that's not good enough. In my opinion IceTV should extend the subscriptions of all those subscribers who relied on their announcement in moving to Vista. The extension should be as long as it takes to ensure that the guide works reliably as would reasonably have been expected from Ice's statements.

Your response is eagerly awaited!

[kjfarrell]

Yes I know it has been said that the issue with the guide screwing up is not the fault of IceTV and I'm not disagreeing with that.

I am, who's fault is it then. Microsoft? Their guide works fine in other countries.

This needs a fix, I just don't see anyone rushing to the party. 

[lukeronalds]

I agree, regardless of what the cause of the issue is (either on Microsoft or IceTV's part) it is the IceTV product / service that is not working as expected and thus IceTV needs to resolve the issue.

[impact]

You guys deserve an update... (Been really busy - wife in hospital, me going crazy with 3 kids during the day....)

The logging I did for MS, has been supplied to them. From my untrained eye it looks very interesting;
- I can see nearly every hour, processes are scanning and looking for changes in the dvb-t channel lineup
- And when the guide mucks up the log file is showing that it has found new services for channel 7 and/or SBS

Now - what makes it think there is new services ? And why does it corrupt the channel lineup. The service it finds is already in the lineup - so there is no need to add it !!! There appears to be no change to PID / SID etc... So its strange.

The problem is definately appearing to be a MS problem and not an Ice one...

So I am asking for MS to fix it or give us a way of turning off this background scanning so it does not pretend to find new channels...

The catch - its not a high priority for MS (Australia small market, other DVB-T countries not experiencing it) - and as yet my contacts have only passed it on to the programmers - who have not had time to analyse what is going on.

To add to this, the programmers have been busy with other higher priorities in the last couple of weeks - they are all working on a deadline (not said what) and working till small hours of the morning (sound famiiar if you work in the IT industry!!!). One could guess that it relates to the MS announcement of looking for Beta Testers ? But who knows....

I am hoping that in the next week, we may have someone look at the supplied logs, relate it back to their code, and identify the problem and a fix. Remembering though any fix will still be weeks and weeks away while it goes through their testing phases...

Not good news, but not totally bad - MS should now have enough info to address the issue, and its just a matter of hours in the day type scenario...

I'll keep you informed of what I know...