Feature Request: IceTV EPG User Update

[Nem]

How about a feature where errors in the EPG can be fixed by account holders. Users could select from programs already in the schedule or even completing custom inserts by creating the title themselves. The change to the schedule can be allotted a flag based upon differing threshold levels. eg:

• Disabled
• Accept all (including custom)
• A Few submissions
• Lots of submissions
• Those verified by IceTV

and this could then be set within the device to fill the EPG where no program data (IceTV or channel) exists at the user accepted threshold. Whilst accuracy could be a major concern I think that the IceTV community would be the big winners in maintaining their own EPG and the interactive IceTV features would become the premium service benefits. I'm sure that there would even be some members of the IceTV community keen enough to write their own synopsis for the program info.
Issues with copyright could be avoided by allowing only submitted schedules for series already existing in the EPG as mouse clicks would then be the only input. In many cases this would also resolve problems with program length as the details of the scheduled program would already exist in the IceTV database. And of course (in the case of custom entries) IceTV can make every effort to ensure that IP copyright isn't breached by removing any information copied from other sources the channels "own"  ,  and the responsibility for the submission of the copyrighted information falls at the feet of the members of the subscriber community and not IceTv. (not unlike YouTube etc)
Of course users participation would be purely voluntary and those not wishing to participate can rely simply upon the information that is fed to their devices from the existing IceTV sources, but as a parallel service I see this as something to enhance IceTVs product catalog, strengthened by the support from the user community.

[prl]

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Issues with copyright could be avoided by allowing only submitted schedules for series already existing in the EPG as mouse clicks would then be the only input. In many cases this would also resolve problems with program length as the details of the scheduled program would already exist in the IceTV database. And of course (in the case of custom entries) IceTV can make every effort to ensure that IP copyright isn't breached by removing any information copied from other sources the channels "own"  ,  and the responsibility for the submission of the copyrighted information falls at the feet of the members of the subscriber community and not IceTv. (not unlike YouTube etc)
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I'm not sure that that helps IceTV much.

The issue with as I understand it copyright isn't how it was copied, but that it was copied. Mouseclicks could easily be used to type text using an on-screen keyboard. It's not the method, it's the result that matters.

I can't see how IceTV could know whether program schedule information was copied from a broadcast ad for the program (which is apparently OK) or from a published schedule (which apparently is not). I've already seen one post in the forum where marc@islayer (I think) said pretty much just that.

And publishing information without the permission of the copyright holder is just as much contrary to the copyright act as copying it without permission.

Not a lawyer.

[Nem]

The issue with as I understand it copyright isn't how it was copied, but that it was copied.

So the person who copied it is at fault and IceTV would be responsible for its removal upon notice of the infringement.

Mouseclicks could easily be used to type text using an on-screen keyboard. It's not the method, it's the result that matters.

But where would they be click typing to? There would be any fields to fill in only calendar times and programs searched and selected that are already within the schedule. The very fact that they already exist in the IceTV schedule would suggest they dont breach copyright.

The custom entry option (allowing keystroke input) is a bigger messier can of worms but with the right approach I believe could also be implemented. This would be a stage two project versus the point click stage one functionality.

[prl]

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But where would they be click typing to? There would be any fields to fill in only calendar times and programs searched and selected that are already within the schedule. The very fact that they already exist in the IceTV schedule would suggest they dont breach copyright.
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My understanding is that one reason IceTV why recently changed their procedures for creating the guide was Nine's complaint that IceTV used the published guides to make minor corrections when their predictive system had erred. Nine's claim was that checking the time of a program on a published schedule and using that information to update IceTV's guide breached Nine's copyright on the schedule. The most recent decision from the courts upheld Nine's position. IceTV now needs to be in a position where it can show that for each change they make to the predicted schedule, they were able to receive the information from some source that they are permitted to use (like an advertised starting time in a promo).

It doesn't matter how the change is made. It matters where the information came from. The same information from different sources has different copyright restrictions on it.

Have a look at how mattk responded to a post providing information about a schedule change:

Unfortunately, IceTV is not permitted to use the information you have provided us for the purpose of amending IceTV’s EPG data unless you can confirm that you obtained the information from watching a television broadcast (ie the actual program or an advertisement for the program) or from a radio or print advertisement for the particular program.  IceTV will not use any information that you have obtained from a third party television program guide.

Not a lawyer.

[Nem]

What you're saying I understand an don't see as a huge issue. The more people watching a channels broadcast, the more people who can update the EPG rather than relying on just IceTV.
eg: I saw Batman Begins was advertised on television a couple of days before the scheduled broadcast. The time slot in the EPG said "N/A". As a user I would have happily submitted an update to the EPG for the benefit of the IceTV community. I'm sure that the broadcaster cannot complain when I got the update from their own advertising.
Obviously this program (once only showing) fits better to the custom scheduling scenario which requires user input to type the name and the program info would have to be obtained from somewhere. I envisage it would be even easier to implement for television series and shows when running times can be based on historical episodes as per a search and select model. This information is therefore not copied from anywhere except from the information provided for previous shows. The essential detail (name/start time/stop time) of the program could be propagated to the EPG providing a basic but functional option for scheduling program recording.

[prl]

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As a user I would have happily submitted an update to the EPG for the benefit of the IceTV community. I'm sure that the broadcaster cannot complain when I got the update from their own advertising.
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It's true that IceTV is allowed to use information from advertisements to correct their EPG data. But, as mattk has said once again, they can only use user reports of changes if they can be certain (probably equivalent to "believe they can convince a judge") that the user report came from a source they are allowed to use. In most cases, I suspect that will mean following up on whatever source the user has told them the information came from.

Your idea makes sense, but I think IceTV's legal position would make it very hard for them to use it, especially in the fully automated way that you initially described.

[Nem]

I think an AUP tick box could be applied in this case for use of this additional service by users. The user who inputs the data would clarify that they adhere to the guidelines of not publishing copyright material - blah blah blah. There could also be a drop down box option to select where the user got the information for each program. ie: broadcast, specified web site (another EPG if not in breach of copyright or informal online discussion etc) and IceTV could categorize each for review. An audit of this information could also be provided upon request to anyone to review. Those that are from broadcast are automatically approved whilst those that are from another potential copyrighted source require manual approval by Ice. All are subject to removal from being published should the copyright owner prove that there has been a violation of copyright.

Can I have a job as a BA at IceTV? 

[prl]

I don't think my point is getting through. IceTV, from mattk's statements, appears to me to need to independently verify user input to the IceTV Guide. I don't think that "A user told us it was from a broadcast advertisement, so we put it straight into the IceTV Guide, Your Honour" is likely to cut it.

Your suggestion might make reporting easier and more direct than posting here, but I don't think it helps much to verify. For verification, posts here might be better: "I saw that Big Sister was rescheduled from 20:30 to 21:30 in an ad on Big Brother TV at about 21:40 on 13 Jul 08". Ticking a box just can't convey that.

IceTV is not permitted to use any information supplied by users for the purpose of amending IceTV’s EPG data unless we can confirm without doubt, that the information was obtained from watching a television broadcast (ie the actual program or an advertisement for the program) or from a radio or print advertisement for the particular program.

Anyway, this is my last post on this topic.

[Nem]

Each submission is independantly varified by the person lodging the submission by them making the declaration and agreeing to terms and conditions.

You're right. You're not a lawyer  Neither am I though. 

[j s]

I wonder what category the EPG that Nine is now broadcasting digitally falls into?

Is a "published program guide" or is it more akin to a scheduling announcement broadcast visually?