IceTV Forum

IceTV Guide for IceTV enabled PVRs => Topfield => Topic started by: vfwfw on March 20, 2011, 09:34:02 PM

Title: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: vfwfw on March 20, 2011, 09:34:02 PM
The last couple a times I checked my recordings on the IceTV website most of the programs I have scheduled for recording have yellow warning signs next to them which have a message saying that there was an error in the recording.

Does anyone khow what this is all about?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: farbar1 on April 13, 2011, 07:56:53 AM
I'd like to understand why this happens as well but there has not been a lot of response that I can see. Does nobody know?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: prl on April 13, 2011, 10:03:44 AM
I'd like to understand why this happens as well but there has not been a lot of response that I can see. Does nobody know?

No. No-one knows, I think not even IceTV staff, because the PVRs don't send a reason why the error occurs. I also occasionally get the yellow warning when the timer has actually been sent successfully (on Beyonwiz, I don't know whether that happens on Topfield).

The usual reason is that the recording would have created a timer conflict.

When a PVR synchs with IceTV, the PVR sends its timers to IceTV, IceTV works out what timer changes need to be made on the PVR, and sends the changes to the PVR. If the PVR can't set a timer, it sends back an error indication for the timer (apparently without any explanation), and the yellow triangle is set on the Web page to indicate that. The usual reason is that the timer that caused the error conflicts with timers that have already been set.

There's a fairly detailed explanation of how IceTV is thought to work (the actual workings are held as a trade secret by IceTV) on the Topfirld forum. I'd provide you with a link, but Topfield has decided to close the forum to reading by non-members*, so I will not provide links to it. Even though I wrote much of the content of that particular post (it was adapted for Topfields by jpp from a post (http://www.beyonwiz.com.au/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=73625#73625) about IceTV and Beyonwizes that I wrote on the Beyonwiz forum).

* I don't know why, and I don't much care.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: tonymy01 on April 13, 2011, 10:36:33 AM
I'd like to understand why this happens as well but there has not been a lot of response that I can see. Does nobody know?
This time of year it is because of the dst transition.Thanks to most pvrs being too stupid to add the correct gmt offset to the ice utc data, what the pvr reports back to Ice won't match what its really meant to record, so ice throws up the exclamation as it can't find the timers it asked to set when the pvr reports back next.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on April 13, 2011, 01:05:49 PM
The last couple a times I checked my recordings on the IceTV website most of the programs I have scheduled for recording have yellow warning signs next to them which have a message saying that there was an error in the recording.

Does anyone khow what this is all about?
Is this something to do with the end of daylight saving?

Try:

1. Making sure that the time offset on the Topfield is set correctly for current period.
2. Delete scheduled recordings in the Topfield.
3. Resend scheduled recordings from the Ice web site.

Before step 3 I would delete the scheduled recordings on the Ice web site, and re-schedule them. This may not be necessary. Also, before step 3 I would switch off the Topfield, then after resending scheduled recordings from the Ice web site wait for at least an hour before turning the Topfield on again.

Anyone with better suggestions, welcome.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: prl on April 13, 2011, 01:54:11 PM
I'd like to understand why this happens as well but there has not been a lot of response that I can see. Does nobody know?
This time of year it is because of the dst transition.Thanks to most pvrs being too stupid to add the correct gmt offset to the ice utc data, what the pvr reports back to Ice won't match what its really meant to record, so ice throws up the exclamation as it can't find the timers it asked to set when the pvr reports back next.
I'm not 100% convinced by this. After the DST changeover, I had two (out of 12 or so) timers on my DP-Lite where that appeared to happen, but all the others were picked up and re-assigned to the new (UTC) times.

I wonder whether there's sometimes a problem with the order that delete-timer and add-timer requests are sent, that lead to a conflict when there actually isn't one. Though I would have thought that the simplest way to get this correct would have been to send all delete-timers, then send all add-timers (or execute them in that order, anyway).
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: markb on April 13, 2011, 06:28:31 PM
I also occasionally get the yellow warning when the timer has actually been sent successfully (on Beyonwiz, I don't know whether that happens on Topfield).

Yep, occasionally happens on Topfield as well.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: farbar1 on April 17, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
I spoke to the support people today about this and they didn't have a clue. I have a promise that they will turn on additional logging and that a techo will contact me. I went in and rescheduled the recordings only to go back in a while later and see the error again. I don't think that this is good enough and I am getting very close to telling ICE what they can do with their service. I'm prepared to pay for quality but not for this junk. It causes me more problems than I need.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Andy Blazer at IceTV on April 18, 2011, 01:07:14 PM
A common cause of these types of issues is trying to record too many shows during the same timeslot.

Unfortunately some PVR's do not support or send us meaningful error reporting.  In these cases, the yellow triangle "Recording Failure" is all that is displayed.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Vortical on April 20, 2011, 10:58:05 PM
A common cause of these types of issues is trying to record too many shows during the same timeslot.

Unfortunately some PVR's do not support or send us meaningful error reporting.  In these cases, the yellow triangle "Recording Failure" is all that is displayed.
Andy

Can't you take the matters further with the manufacturer's directly and perhaps work with the firmware engineer's to resolve these issues?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Daniel Drysdale at IceTV on April 21, 2011, 08:39:24 AM
Can't you take the matters further with the manufacturer's directly and perhaps work with the firmware engineer's to resolve these issues?

This is a subject near and dear to my heart and a constant source of frustration.

During the implementation phase I work closely with the engineers involved, often literally sitting beside them as they write their firmware.

As a direct response to the, shall we say lax efforts, on the part of some of our partners we have mandated that accurate error reporting is required in order to gain certification from us.
Unfortunately many models were developed prior to this requirement and are exempt from it.

Rest assured that we are taking a far harder line on this these days and in time we hope to have all supported devices behaving well.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: GSpot on May 07, 2011, 01:20:19 PM
Can't you take the matters further with the manufacturer's directly and perhaps work with the firmware engineer's to resolve these issues?

This is a subject near and dear to my heart and a constant source of frustration.

During the implementation phase I work closely with the engineers involved, often literally sitting beside them as they write their firmware.

As a direct response to the, shall we say lax efforts, on the part of some of our partners we have mandated that accurate error reporting is required in order to gain certification from us.
Unfortunately many models were developed prior to this requirement and are exempt from it.

Rest assured that we are taking a far harder line on this these days and in time we hope to have all supported devices behaving well.


Does this mean that I shouldn't bother purchasing a new PVR until this issue is sorted? I purchased a Topfield 7100 to replace the disgrace that is the 7000. I was considering one of the newer ones to replace the rubbish that is the 7100, but now think it will be a waste of time. Also...why does this window hide my text as I type? Bloody IT industry Grrr ;)
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: GSpot on July 31, 2011, 02:04:20 PM
So is that a no? Seriously, I'm in the market for a new PVR, but I'm not going to waste my time if I keep having the same problems. The 7100 is listed as a suported device, yet no support is forthcoming. Should I assume that the 7100 is not suited to IceTV (although supported) and get a newer model that is, or can I expect to have the same problems and expect all concerned to play the blame game?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on August 01, 2011, 12:41:00 PM
So is that a no? Seriously, I'm in the market for a new PVR, but I'm not going to waste my time if I keep having the same problems. The 7100 is listed as a supported device, yet no support is forthcoming. Should I assume that the 7100 is not suited to IceTV (although supported) and get a newer model that is, or can I expect to have the same problems and expect all concerned to play the blame game?
From what I have seen, if it is yellow triangles that bother you, it happens with PVRs other than the 7100.

I have a 7100, and apart from the occasional hitch it works perfectly once the timers are all rolling OK. I have always found Ice support to be helpful with this model when I have encountered what looks like an intractable problem, and have seen nothing to suggest that is no longer the case. This forum is for an exchange of ideas, not the place to seek Ice support. The 7100 community may be shrinking slowly as newer models become available, and the reason why you are not finding answers here.

The 7100 is getting a bit long in the tooth but, and more recent PVRs may suit you better. It may come down to what you have to pay for them.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: grahford on August 03, 2011, 12:18:45 PM
I get these a few times a week on the 2400 and it is frustrating.  Sometimes it is a fairly obvious clash that is easy to fix and reschedule.  But other times there seems to be no reason at all.  The show will be sitting all on its own with nothing around it and you will still get a yellow exclamation mark.

The following is then what I normally encounter.
Sometimes, make that rarely, hitting reschedule will work.  For this I just assume there was some kind of communication error when icetv first tried to set.

More often then not, when I hit reschedule it will turn into a hollow circle.  And stay that way.  As in the show will come and go and not be recorded.

On my old 7100 I used to fix most errors by doing the 'resend all timers'.  On my 2400 this causes major annoyances because then all existing timers turn into exclamation marks.  I'm guessing because icetv resends the timer and the 2400 responds that a problem happened due to it already being there.  So it's better to clear all timers on the 2400 before sending them again.

The only reliable way I've found to deal with them is to click on the dud show and select cancel.  Wait an hour till you are sure your machine has synced and then re-add it.  This seems to work.  It made me think that perhaps the show was actually on the 2400.  But every time I've checked prior to doing this it hasn't been.  I've put it down to some kind of glitch somewhere.  Maybe the show really, is there, but not showing up in the timer list?

There are three frustrating things here for me.  The first is having to wait an hour for the machine to sync before you can then rescheduling the show (and then wait another hour for that to go through).  I understand that icetv doesn't want their server swamped, but it's still annoying when you are trying to fix something.

The second is having to manually check the site every few days to fix any unexplained errors.  Every time one comes up I curse the lack of email alerts for failed timers.

The final one is that I'm never sure if the problem is icetv or my 2400, (or me).  I've followed icetv's tech advice to the letter and it keeps happening.

Craig.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on August 03, 2011, 03:21:26 PM
There are three frustrating things here for me.  The first is having to wait an hour for the machine to sync before you can then rescheduling the show (and then wait another hour for that to go through).  I understand that icetv doesn't want their server swamped, but it's still annoying when you are trying to fix something.

The second is having to manually check the site every few days to fix any unexplained errors.  Every time one comes up I curse the lack of email alerts for failed timers.

The final one is that I'm never sure if the problem is icetv or my 2400, (or me).  I've followed icetv's tech advice to the letter and it keeps happening.
I could be wrong but I think that the intervals between fetches are dictated by the PVRs, not the Ice servers, although it is possible for the Ice techs to reset a user's account so that fetches can be more frequent.

I check both the Ice site and the PVRs daily to ensure that timers are set correctly. While that is OK for me, I understand that it can be a real nuisance for people who want to set their timers remotely (a feature that must sell quite a few IceTV subscriptions).

Has the 2400 really bedded down with IceTV yet? If not, the model is new enough that Ice and Topfield need to get their acts together, although it has been observed that Topfield firmware engineers are "lazy".

I have just seen that there is a new procedure on the IceTV site for re-sending timers. They advise "Topfield PVRs will require a factory reset before resending any recordings." Hmmm. It may result in a more reliable and accurate timer list, but a lot of work for the customer in setting up the PVR again.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: prl on August 09, 2011, 11:00:02 PM
There are three frustrating things here for me.  The first is having to wait an hour for the machine to sync before you can then rescheduling the show (and then wait another hour for that to go through).  I understand that icetv doesn't want their server swamped, but it's still annoying when you are trying to fix something.
...
I could be wrong but I think that the intervals between fetches are dictated by the PVRs, not the Ice servers, although it is possible for the Ice techs to reset a user's account so that fetches can be more frequent.

Yes, you are wrong. :) The time between fetches is set by the server, not by the PVR. The PVR contacts the server, and is either sent the update requested (EPG and Timers are separate requests) and how long it should wait for the next update, or it is sent a message essentially saying "request made too early, try again in xx minutes". The time to next update is stored on a per account and per device basis.

On Beyonwizes, the PVR contacts the IceTV server shortly (a few minutes) after a start from standby, and then it follows the times that the server sends it. You can see it counting down to the next update in a status window in the IceTV setup screen. The normal times between updates are 60 min for EPG and 30 min for timers. These times can be longer if the server is busy, though I haven't seen that happen for a long time.

On Topfields, there seems to be a longer delay between startup from standby and the first IceTV fetch. I assume that once it gets rolling, the fetch time rules from the server are the same as for Beyonwiz, but I don't know for sure. I believe there is still an FAQ about how IceTV works on Topfields on the Topfield forum, but since the Topfield forum is now closed to non-members, even for reading, I don't post links to that forum.

One consequence of all this is that any debugging of problems with IceTV can be a drawn-out process.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on August 10, 2011, 02:33:16 PM
There are three frustrating things here for me.  The first is having to wait an hour for the machine to sync before you can then rescheduling the show (and then wait another hour for that to go through).  I understand that icetv doesn't want their server swamped, but it's still annoying when you are trying to fix something.
...
I could be wrong but I think that the intervals between fetches are dictated by the PVRs, not the Ice servers, although it is possible for the Ice techs to reset a user's account so that fetches can be more frequent.

Yes, you are wrong. :) The time between fetches is set by the server, not by the PVR. The PVR contacts the server, and is either sent the update requested (EPG and Timers are separate requests) and how long it should wait for the next update, or it is sent a message essentially saying "request made too early, try again in xx minutes". The time to next update is stored on a per account and per device basis.

On Beyonwizes, the PVR contacts the IceTV server shortly (a few minutes) after a start from standby, and then it follows the times that the server sends it. You can see it counting down to the next update in a status window in the IceTV setup screen. The normal times between updates are 60 min for EPG and 30 min for timers. These times can be longer if the server is busy, though I haven't seen that happen for a long time.

On Topfields, there seems to be a longer delay between startup from standby and the first IceTV fetch. I assume that once it gets rolling, the fetch time rules from the server are the same as for Beyonwiz, but I don't know for sure. I believe there is still an FAQ about how IceTV works on Topfields on the Topfield forum, but since the Topfield forum is now closed to non-members, even for reading, I don't post links to that forum.

One consequence of all this is that any debugging of problems with IceTV can be a drawn-out process.
Thanks for the technical information.

With my Topfield there is network traffic as soon as the HDD check has been completed after switching on from standby. The EPG takes a few minutes to load after that. Timers appear to be passed to the PVR well within 30 minutes.

To go back to what grahfed found frustrating, do you have any idea why IceTV would need to wait an hour between updating timers on the Topfield PVRs, but only 30 minutes for the BW?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: prl on August 10, 2011, 04:32:18 PM
...
To go back to what grahfed found frustrating, do you have any idea why IceTV would need to wait an hour between updating timers on the Topfield PVRs, but only 30 minutes for the BW?
No idea, not even whether that's expected behaviour. I've never had a Topfield with networked IceTV (I used to have a TF7000 with sneakernet IceTV EPG, but that's a completely different situation). Is there any information in the Topfield forum FAQ about IceTV?

From what I've heard, the Topfields give very little feedback about what they're doing with IceTV. Beyonwizes have a little status window you can look at and see directly when it will be getting the next update.

If there's a difference between how often IceTV allows Topfields to update timers and how often Beyonwizes do, I don't know why. Perhaps someone from Ice could say?

Edit: IceTV's FAQ about how often timers are updated (http://support.icetv.com.au/entries/20067972-how-long-does-it-take-to-remotely-schedule-a-show) says that they should normally be updated every 30 minutes, unless the server is heavily loaded. There's no mention of it being different for Topfields. It does say that Elgato EyeTV only gets timer updates once every 60 minutes.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on August 10, 2011, 06:08:40 PM
Is there any information in the Topfield forum FAQ about IceTV?
This from the Topfield Forum:

"It appears that IceTV Guide updates can normally be done every 60 minutes, and IceTV interactive updates can be done every 30 minutes. However, the protocol has a "call back in X minutes" message from the IceTV server, which appears to be sent at the end of each exchange, but is also sent if the server is contacted by a PVR before it was due to make contact, and can also be sent if the PVR contacts the server at the correct time, but the server is loaded, and has increased the time between updates." (as Edited by JaffaMan - 28/Feb/2010.) (You might recognise your own words.)

and

"No, currently (and nearly a year later Smile ), we are still at the same point in history. 35 min is enough to pull in the Reservations though. An updated EPG takes the full 62 min as discussed before."

Note that I have been selective with the quotes, and the second one applies to the Topfield 2400.

The first quote implies that timer updates might be made every 30 minutes, but the "My Account" information on the IceTV site only indicates when EPG fetches occur and that is once every hour or so.

From what you have said, and what might be deduced from the Topfield forum, it is possible that both the BW and Topfield EPG and timer updates operate in a similar way, at least from IceTV's end

Nonetheless Topfield owners (including me) are persistently under the impression that full updates only occur once every hour or so. Might it have something to do with the need for the Topfield to have an updated EPG before it will process any new timers?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: prl on August 10, 2011, 07:43:45 PM
...
Nonetheless Topfield owners (including me) are persistently under the impression that full updates only occur once every hour or so. Might it have something to do with the need for the Topfield to have an updated EPG before it will process any new timers?
Unfortunately, that sort of level of detail is hard to know without direct feedback from the device. It's possible that, for example, Topfield has decided to simply do all updates when the EPG update is permitted. The server side determines the minimum time between updates; I guess there's nothing that says that the PVR firmware writers will always update as soon as it's allowed.

And yes, I did know that the Topfield IceTV FAQ is based on the IceTV FAQ I wrote for Beyonwiz. However I haven't read the Topfield version since the Topfield forum closed its doors to non-members.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: raymondjpg on August 10, 2011, 08:03:49 PM
...
Nonetheless Topfield owners (including me) are persistently under the impression that full updates only occur once every hour or so. Might it have something to do with the need for the Topfield to have an updated EPG before it will process any new timers?
Unfortunately, that sort of level of detail is hard to know without direct feedback from the device. It's possible that, for example, Topfield has decided to simply do all updates when the EPG update is permitted. The server side determines the minimum time between updates; I guess there's nothing that says that the PVR firmware writers will always update as soon as it's allowed.

And yes, I did know that the Topfield IceTV FAQ is based on the IceTV FAQ I wrote for Beyonwiz. However I haven't read the Topfield version since the Topfield forum closed its doors to non-members.
I only have experience of the 7100 and don't anticipate any more developments in firmware. Perhaps grahford could be mildly reassured that maybe there is still some time for a firmware update for the 2400 series which allows for a 30 minute interval between timer updates.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: daylesfordpep on August 21, 2011, 06:25:16 PM
Hi All
I purchased my unit in June to take advantage of 4 recordings on two streams.  Been not stop problems since the purchase.  In fact I am  looking at a blank reservation page on the recorder as it has just lost everything.  Frequently lose the guide and very frequently the website shows conflicts where they don't exist.  Have also recently been getting recordings from the wrong station and that state an hour recording but go for minutes.  Really disappointed at how many series recordings I have given up on.

Manager from IceTV informed my there were known conflicts with the model Topfield I purchased and IceTV.  Topfield in Korea are hoping to have the problems fixed by the end of August - I hope so too.

I like the Topfield and I like IceTV.  Very disappointed they are selling a product with so many faults but think it will be a great service when the faults are ironed out. :-\
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: wally3218 on September 02, 2011, 05:25:31 PM
Something seems to be wrong with the names of the programs to be recorded on my 2460 there showing
4/09 Sun 21:30 Camelot-3
4/09 Sun 22:30 Camelot-3
Shouldnt the 2nd episode be called Camelot-4
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Madeleine IceGuide on September 02, 2011, 08:17:00 PM
Hi. This what we have in our guide:

Guinevere at 9.30
"Guinevere and her fiance Leontes arrive at Camelot after their land is invaded. Merlin, knowing how Arthur feels about her, tries everything he can to keep them apart. Merlin and Arthur travel to Pendragon castle and meet with Morgan, who reveals a secret about her past."

Lady of the Lake at 10.30
"When Arthur's sword is broken by Gawain, Merlin journeys to the master blacksmith Caliburn to enlist his skills into forging a new blade."

If the descriptions don't match then it isn't our data. Also, Camelot was dropped from 9 on Wed and re-scheduled on Go! on Thur ... are you seeing it on Go! on your pvr?
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: wally3218 on September 02, 2011, 09:18:49 PM
Thanks Madeleine , I was querying why both my reservations show as "Camelot-3"
I think once the shows have been recorded that the number gets changed and its not a problem.
I'm just getting used to my Topfield 2460 everything else is working great with IceTV
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: wally3218 on September 06, 2011, 05:39:01 PM
I just updated my reservations by adding a new shows to be recorded one has givin me the yellow error triangle.
One show has been recieved by the 2460 but the other one hasnt been recieved.
This appears to have been caused by the start times being different from the epg guide on the site and the epg guide that i have on the pvr.
Will the timers be resent after the epg guide updates on the 2460 and will the yellow error triangle be replaced by the red circle.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Davo@home on September 07, 2011, 06:33:34 PM
I upgraded from my 7100 that I have had for several years to the 2460 recently and have also noted these recording problems, it seems to occur due to differences between the pvr EPG and ICE web site program times and even complete programs when changed are not reflected with the pvr's EPG as wally3218 has also seen (of note last night Nikita shown on ICE web as starting at 2250, pvr showed as 2300, no recording reservation but shown on web site as programed). I have checked when last fetch's were and have not yet determined the frequency of the units fetches but the unit has just been on for about an hour and the last fetch was still early this morning. Have also note on several occasions that there is no extended program information on the pvr EPG but it is shown on the ICE we site.

Have missed several recordings because of this, am still looking and will start logging in more detail now that the above seems to be the cause. May some advice from ICE on what and why this maybe happening? Never had this issue with the 7100!
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Lisey on September 08, 2011, 10:02:25 AM
Ive got a 7100 and record a lot of shows and have never has the yellow icon.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: wally3218 on September 08, 2011, 11:56:37 AM
Ive got a 7100 and record a lot of shows and have never has the yellow icon.
I believe this problem only happens to the 2400 and 2460 I also had a 7100 and had no problems with that.
Title: Re: Recording errors on the IceTV website
Post by: Fester on September 08, 2011, 08:25:08 PM
It is happening to me about daily now! Hit reschedule but as you experience it still does not force a recording most times. I am really getting sick of having to check the website daily and then the reservation list on the 2460 to make sure my recordings are scheduled.