Prefer standard definition

Started by csutak40, November 23, 2019, 09:21:47 PM

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csutak40

Not sure if this is the right section for this. (or if it has been mentioned before)
I just went to schedule a new program and discovered that the choice of standard or HD definition recording seems to have disappeared.
Why is it so?  :( ???
Cheers,
Judy
Last Update Dec 9 2020; Beyonwiz V2, T2,

prl

My understanding is that all recordings are now "prefer HD".
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

MD

Yes our default have always been "Prefer HD", but if HD is not enabled in the IceTV Guide Settings and an SD channel is available it will choose SD.  But SD has a poor picture and, counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression so HD is always the way to go. Having the choices caused confusion or illogical choices of "Prefer SD" (when one knows the reasons).  So we have taken away the option to make the mistake.

raymondjpg

Quote from: MD on November 24, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
Yes our default have always been "Prefer HD", but if HD is not enabled in the IceTV Guide Settings and an SD channel is available it will choose SD.  But SD has a poor picture and, counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression so HD is always the way to go. Having the choices caused confusion or illogical choices of "Prefer SD" (when one knows the reasons).  So we have taken away the option to make the mistake.

I agree with most of that, except that SD has a poor picture, and that the choices cause confusion or illogical choices. I do usually prefer the HD channels for recording, but I'm not convinced that many of them are native HD, but rather upscaled SD broadcasts, or that they always have significantly better picture quality than the SD channels. Also, I have in the past always recorded the SD channel as well as the HD channel in simulcast broadcasts just in case there happened to be problems with the HD stream. I haven't seen it lately, but in the past I do recall issues with video and/or audio on the HD channel that weren't apparent in the SD stream. Another issue that may be less important to most is one appears to have to take more care with compressing HD recordings with x265 for archiving to avoid combing.

So I generally record the HD option on a PVR that employs IceTV, and hedge my bets by recording both SD and HD streams on a PVR that employs the OTA EPG and autotimers as a backup option.

It does raise a question in my mind as to what happens with timers created on the PVR in the BW T/U/V series that employ IceTV. Would a timer created for an SD channel be registered as an SD timer on the IceTV servers, and, if and when the scheduled time for the broadcast changes, would the servers change that timer to an HD channel timer?
Beyonwiz T2, Beyonwiz U4, IceBox BYO with Hauppauge WinTV-dualHD (x2), Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD

csutak40

Quote from: MD on November 24, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
counterintuitively, HD doesn't use much if any more HD space due to broadcast compression
I was told this once before and during the time when I was regularly getting doubled up recordings, I had the opportunity to test this and it simply wasn't the case for me.  The HD version used quite a bit more space
Cheers,
Judy
Last Update Dec 9 2020; Beyonwiz V2, T2,

prl

All the broadcasters now use MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for their HD broadcasts. That means that if you did those measurements some time ago when HD was normally in MPEG2, they may not be relevant any more.

Here are some quick measurements for Canberra broadcasts using the bitrate plugin:
                       HD         SD

ABC                  3.0-3.1    3.8-3.9
SBS ONE              4.3-4.6    1.8-2.4
VICELAND             4.6-4.9
9                    4.5-4.8    3.2-3.5
PRIME7               4.0-4.5    3.2-3.5

The measurements are in Mbit/sec. To convert to Gbyte/hour, multiply by 0.45 (3.6/8).

The bit rate differences are not great, and note particularly that the ABC HD bit rate is less than the ABC bit rate!

The ACMA no longer requires broadcasters to report on what proportion of their HD broadcasts are from HD sources, so I don't know how much is upscaled from SD (and IIRC, the minimum HD requirement was low when it was being reported, and only applied to commercial broadcasters). I'd presume that there has been a slow increase in the use of HD source material.
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

prl

If you're watching recordings on a HD (or UHD/4k) TV, then any SD source material will need to be upscaled somewhere: by the broadcaster, by the PVR or by the TV.

There is some sense in recording in SD if the TV is SD.
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

Daniel Hall at IceTV

So to try and clear up any confusion, we have removed some of the options on the website and iOS apps (the android app update is being worked on now) for series and keyword recordings. Namely these are the "limit per day", "network selection", "prefer HD/HD Only/prefer SD/SD Only" option, and the "Time" option. As going through all the scenarios available (and looking at how often these options were used) you could get the same effects by either disabling the channels you don't want to record on, but also using the "Channel" option and whether you wanted "repeats" or not, and this would simplify things tremendously.

Quote from: raymondjpg on November 24, 2019, 12:16:16 PM
It does raise a question in my mind as to what happens with timers created on the PVR in the BW T/U/V series that employ IceTV. Would a timer created for an SD channel be registered as an SD timer on the IceTV servers, and, if and when the scheduled time for the broadcast changes, would the servers change that timer to an HD channel timer?

Single timers created on either the PVR or on the IceTV website are linked to a specific airing of a show, if it moves times it will stay with that particular showing which will always stay on that channel, the HD airing has a different airing ID and it will not swap over to it.

If there are any questions just let us know and we can clear up any confusion there might be.
Regards,

Daniel.
CTO.

raymondjpg

Quote from: Daniel Hall at IceTV on November 24, 2019, 06:35:47 PMSingle timers created on either the PVR or on the IceTV website are linked to a specific airing of a show, if it moves times it will stay with that particular showing which will always stay on that channel, the HD airing has a different airing ID and it will not swap over to it.

Thanks for clearing that up. I just set a single timer against a program on an SD channel of a simulcast, and it does show as a scheduled recording against the SD program in My Week. I'll take it that it would persist as an SD timer through scheduled screening time changes.
Beyonwiz T2, Beyonwiz U4, IceBox BYO with Hauppauge WinTV-dualHD (x2), Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD

csutak40

Quote from: prl on November 24, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
All the broadcasters now use MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for their HD broadcasts. That means that if you did those measurements some time ago when HD was normally in MPEG2, they may not be relevant any more.


As if on cue, Graham Norton recorded twice tonight.  Not sure if this has to do with the old doubling up problem (happens occasionally, but not that often lately) or the preferences having been removed, however, here is the result
Cheers,
Judy
Last Update Dec 9 2020; Beyonwiz V2, T2,

ChrisW

I asked for this a couple of years ago: Would it be possible to always offer the last option used? e.g. stored in a cookie

I nearly always prefer SD, except for the odd sci-fi or nature show where HD is worth it. So nearly every timer I set requires me changing the "Any channel" (or previous, "Prefer HD") option to the SD equivalent, meaning an extra mouse click every time.

My reasons for preferring SD recordings:

  • Skippas don't process ad skipping on HD recordings.
  • Despite what you say, I still believe the SD vs HD filesize can be significant for a "bulging" HDD.
  • My Skippa seems to struggle (and reboot) more often when recording HD, especially with multiple recordings.
  • I believe that ad skipping, FF, RW, etc is more sluggish on HD recordings, on both the Skippa and my Beyonwiz.

csutak40

    Quote from: ChrisW on November 25, 2019, 01:20:25 PM

    • Despite what you say, I still believe the SD vs HD filesize can be significant for a "bulging" HDD.

    [/quote
    That is my experience (on a Beyonwiz).  See attachment above
    Cheers,
    Judy
    Last Update Dec 9 2020; Beyonwiz V2, T2,

    MD

    Hi ChrisW,

    Regarding having to choose SD as we prefer HD the simple solution to that is to go to your IceTV Guide Settings in your account and disable every HD channel then SD will get chosen as we can't "Prefer HD". Also, I see you use an iPhone and the latest update removes the HD-SD choices so setting the option in your Guide Settings will become the only way to get SD every time, but its the easy way anyway.

    MD

    Hi cstak40,

    The reason we have removed these options is that having technically complex options to suit the few expert edge cases is simply not a good business model. The vast majority want a simple foolproof click and record choice or else they delve in and mess up and we lose far more "keep it simple" customers than the expert edge cases will ever add up to.

    ChrisW

    Quote from: MD on November 25, 2019, 02:44:42 PM
    Regarding having to choose SD as we prefer HD the simple solution to that is to go to your IceTV Guide Settings in your account and disable every HD channel then SD will get chosen as we can't "Prefer HD". Also, I see you use an iPhone and the latest update removes the HD-SD choices so setting the option in your Guide Settings will become the only way to get SD every time, but its the easy way anyway.

    Thanks for that.

    I realise I could remove the HD channels, but then I wouldn't be able to record the occasional thing I do want in HD.

    I don't actually use the iPhone app - just added it recently when I switched to an iPhone. I do the bulk of my scheduling on a laptop each morning.