IceTV Resurrected

Started by Dave at IceTV, October 16, 2015, 11:59:20 AM

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simoncasey

Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I'm a little confused on the timeline here.

Ice TV owned and run by Chris OBrien

A number of customers prepaid their service agreements in advance
A number of customers paid and didn't get their PVR's

So IceTV had a financial issue and went into administration.   

Administrators came in an essentially put the business up for sale because Chris's business could no longer function.

Chris came back in and bought the company back less all the obligations he previously had before it went broke.

Consequently, the owners of the old IceTV are the owners of the new IceTV less all the obligations they had to their customers (not to mention creditors and presumably staff as well).

All the customers are meant to run back and rebuy their services (not to mention hardware) from the same person who took their previous money?

Am I missing something here?   Are we meant to feel happy about that ?



Don't get me wrong.  Im glad the staff still have a job to come back and previously I was quite happy with IceTV.  I was even sad for the owners and staff of IceTV when it went broke.  But to see the same owner step back in and keep running with the company makes me feel like this is a bit poor form.  How do we trust that the new company wont just follow the previous one taking all the customers money again?

I was all set to rejoin icetv until I saw the same director on the from line in my friendly email I just received.

Perhaps I have missed something ?

I think there's certainly a complex issue. The same person providing the service before and after has some benefits in terms of the service of the epg and guide. We should await for the results of the administrators report and if anything gets returned to the creditors from the original company and to see where the problems were. From what we've been provided, the problem appears to be with skippa and its supplier. What I would like to see is how much of the creditors money is still with the supplier and how much was lost by icetv. If we register as creditors, then we should receive that info.

In terms of what's stopping them taking our money again? In the first place they lost our money, rather than took it. It's a pedantic difference but important. From my personal position, it doesn't appear as if the epg service was in difficulty, and that part of the business along wth the subscribers has been the victim of the skippa issues. If they continue with just an epg service, that would be reasonable in my opinion. If they start another pvr using the upfront epg subscriptions, that would be different.

prl

Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
...
Perhaps I have missed something ?
Only, really, that this is not an uncommon situation when a company goes into administration in a state where there are useful assets in the company that can be bought by someone else. The money from that sale goes to the company's creditors, the administrators first, then secured creditors, then unsecured creditors (like subscribers). There is rarely enough to pay the creditors in full, especially not the unsecured creditors.

In this case the assets have been bought by a company owned (at least in part) by the former (I presume major) shareholder in IceTV Pty Ltd, Colin O'Brien. That's also not a particularly unusual way that these things happen.

If you request the administrators report, what happened will be spelt out in a good deal more detail and with more factual basis than what is available currently on Web forums.
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

dcoggins

Quote from: Paul55 on October 20, 2015, 08:14:23 AM

(snip)

The fact is there is a very limited pool of people capable of managing this service - and even less who would have been able to maintain the service without a break. You either want the service or you don't - you don't get to choose who runs it unless you cough the money the buy and run the business yourself.
I understand that customers are annoyed - I lost more than 5 years of subscriptions myself. But we need to get over it - what has happened has happened. The proper process was enacted and independent auditors/administrators have found a way ahead that keeps the service running and staff employed.

I see people expressing concern for the IceTV employees and, in the same post, stating they won't be subscribing to the service they obviously value because they aren't happy with how the situation has been (successfully) resolved. If the new IceTV isn't profitable, those very employees will lose their jobs. A bit hypocritical IMO.

My view exactly. What's done is done, mistakes were made, lessons hopefully learned, let's all move on. Personally I'm glad to see the epg service continuing, I wasn't looking forward to messing around organising a new one.

prl

Quote from: simoncasey on October 20, 2015, 10:06:17 AM
...
In terms of what's stopping them taking our money again? In the first place they lost our money, rather than took it. It's a pedantic difference but important. ...
It's also a different "them". The IceTV Pty Ltd that we paid our money to is not the entity that we will be paying the new subscriptions to, even though the ownership of the two entities is likely to be similar.
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

wide_screen

Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I'm a little confused on the timeline here.

Ice TV owned and run by Chris OBrien

A number of customers prepaid their service agreements in advance
A number of customers paid and didn't get their PVR's

So IceTV had a financial issue and went into administration.   

Administrators came in an essentially put the business up for sale because Chris's business could no longer function.

Chris came back in and bought the company back less all the obligations he previously had before it went broke.

Consequently, the owners of the old IceTV are the owners of the new IceTV less all the obligations they had to their customers (not to mention creditors and presumably staff as well).

All the customers are meant to run back and rebuy their services (not to mention hardware) from the same person who took their previous money?

Am I missing something here?   Are we meant to feel happy about that ?



Don't get me wrong.  Im glad the staff still have a job to come back and previously I was quite happy with IceTV.  I was even sad for the owners and staff of IceTV when it went broke.  But to see the same owner step back in and keep running with the company makes me feel like this is a bit poor form.  How do we trust that the new company wont just follow the previous one taking all the customers money again?

I was all set to rejoin icetv until I saw the same director on the from line in my friendly email I just received.

Perhaps I have missed something ?

Information on the ASIC site regarding pheonix activity by companies, some of which is illegal apparently:

http://asic.gov.au/for-business/your-business/small-business/compliance-for-small-business/small-business-illegal-phoenix-activity/

simoncasey

Quote from: prl on October 20, 2015, 11:27:01 AM
Quote from: simoncasey on October 20, 2015, 10:06:17 AM
...
In terms of what's stopping them taking our money again? In the first place they lost our money, rather than took it. It's a pedantic difference but important. ...
It's also a different "them". The IceTV Pty Ltd that we paid our money to is not the entity that we will be paying the new subscriptions to, even though the ownership of the two entities is likely to be similar.

I note from ASIC that a company IceTv Australia Pty Limited ACN 608 718 770 was registered on 13/10/2015, ie deadline day for responding to Colin O'Brien's request for yes/no if we would pay $7.99

raj

Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I'm a little confused on the timeline here.
...
Perhaps I have missed something ?

No, you have not. There is a well known crane manufacturer that does the same thing. Over the past 30 years, it has had numerous bouts of administration where they have risen from the ashes. The common thing is that the new name always starts with a V.

In this case, it comes down to the how much is owed, and whether the bank (generally the only secured creditor) is open to an offer.

What happens is that someone who know the bank is not going to get far will approach the bank and make them an offer. The secured creditor knows that the way to get the most is to keep the administrators hands off the assets as they will quickly dwindle. The other group is lawyers. The last thing they want is for it to end up in court.

So, an offer is made to the secured creditor to buy its debt for a very small amount. The bank will be able to offset its income against the loss, so the bank might have received only say 20 c in the $ if it went through normally. Someone with money might offer the bank say 10 c in the dollar or even less. The bank knows it will get this immediately, whereas in administration, it could drag on for years and the bank might actually end up with only 1 or 2 c in the dollar.

So, the company starts again minus the debts.

So, there are a couple of things to do. The first is to complete and mail in the POD document the administrators have sent out. You can get your transaction history, and the renewals are always added to the end of any existing subscription.

The next is to never go for a long subscription period as you have no way of knowing how long a company will be in business for.

In the case of IceTV, my guess is that it was the attempt to get into the PVR marked that was the cause of the current problems. Product development is a money pit, and the assumption here was that the first attempt would be successful. The reality is that there are many failed products that go through the development cycle before you get your first successful one. Why do you think companies buy out competitors rather than compete?

wackers

Great news that IceTV will continue as a service.

From my understanding our accounts remain intact along with scheduling settings, which is great as it saves me having to setup everything again. Only problem I seem to be having is that my DP-P1 doesn't seem to be able to contact IceTV to download the EPG from IceTV.

Does anyone know what is happening here? Are the servers up, or is it just me?

Cheers.

Cashie

Quote from: Paul55 on October 20, 2015, 08:14:23 AM
Quote from: GaryT on October 20, 2015, 06:11:03 AM
Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
Perhaps I have missed something ?

I do not think you've missed much. Sounds like a pretty good summary to me !


I see people expressing concern for the IceTV employees and, in the same post, stating they won't be subscribing to the service they obviously value because they aren't happy with how the situation has been (successfully) resolved. If the new IceTV isn't profitable, those very employees will lose their jobs. A bit hypocritical IMO.

I also feel for the employees, but I won't be stumping up another $8 a month for the service.
I can't see the hypocrisy you mention though, I've lost many years of my subscription and I have decided the new charges are unreasonable for the service and I've found an alternative solution (TiVo).

prl

#159
Quote from: wackers on October 20, 2015, 03:21:31 PM
Great news that IceTV will continue as a service.

From my understanding our accounts remain intact along with scheduling settings, which is great as it saves me having to setup everything again. Only problem I seem to be having is that my DP-P1 doesn't seem to be able to contact IceTV to download the EPG from IceTV.

Does anyone know what is happening here? Are the servers up, or is it just me?

Cheers.

Our Beyonwiz T4 last contacted the IceTV servers today, 20 October, 2015 at 03:52pm. Our DPs last contacted the servers 19 October, 2015 at 09:13pm, but they probably haven't run today.
Peter
Beyonwiz T4 in-use
Beyonwiz T2, T3, T4, U4 & V2 for testing

warkus

My P2 successfully contacted IceTV about 2 hours ago, working fine...

Mark

wackers

Quote from: warkus on October 20, 2015, 04:15:17 PM
My P2 successfully contacted IceTV about 2 hours ago, working fine...

Mark

Thanks for the fast responses. I'll look into my network for the issue.

antman

Quote from: raj on October 20, 2015, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: drumkit on October 20, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
I'm a little confused on the timeline here.
...
Perhaps I have missed something ?

No, you have not. There is a well known crane manufacturer that does the same thing. Over the past 30 years, it has had numerous bouts of administration where they have risen from the ashes. The common thing is that the new name always starts with a V.

In this case, it comes down to the how much is owed, and whether the bank (generally the only secured creditor) is open to an offer.

What happens is that someone who know the bank is not going to get far will approach the bank and make them an offer. The secured creditor knows that the way to get the most is to keep the administrators hands off the assets as they will quickly dwindle. The other group is lawyers. The last thing they want is for it to end up in court.

So, an offer is made to the secured creditor to buy its debt for a very small amount. The bank will be able to offset its income against the loss, so the bank might have received only say 20 c in the $ if it went through normally. Someone with money might offer the bank say 10 c in the dollar or even less. The bank knows it will get this immediately, whereas in administration, it could drag on for years and the bank might actually end up with only 1 or 2 c in the dollar.

So, the company starts again minus the debts.

So, there are a couple of things to do. The first is to complete and mail in the POD document the administrators have sent out. You can get your transaction history, and the renewals are always added to the end of any existing subscription.

The next is to never go for a long subscription period as you have no way of knowing how long a company will be in business for.

In the case of IceTV, my guess is that it was the attempt to get into the PVR marked that was the cause of the current problems. Product development is a money pit, and the assumption here was that the first attempt would be successful. The reality is that there are many failed products that go through the development cycle before you get your first successful one. Why do you think companies buy out competitors rather than compete?

It doesn't appear that is what has happened here. In this case, a new company has purchased the assets of the company in administration (it appears only those assets related to the EPG and related services as well as the business name "IceTV" but not any assets related to the Skippa) with a view to operating them to provide a similar service to that provided by the original company. Only those assets have been acquired and no debt has been paid out: all of the debts and other obligations (as well as the rights and benefits) of the previous company stay with that company under the control of the administrator. The offer would have been made to, and accepted by, the administrator, not any of the secured creditors (proofs of debt have not been finalised yet) There has been no indication yet that any creditors have been paid out or a scheme of arrangement entered into nor whether any liabilities have been carried over in relation to employees (accrued annual leave, long service leave, etc.) who have been employed by the new company. Whatever was paid for the assets will go into the pool available to pay out the administrators and then creditors according to the order of priority set down by the relevant laws, predominantly the (Commonwealth) Corporations Act.

hutch

I am one year into a four year subscription. I paid $140 it. Seeing as IceTV is still IceTV (resurrected), I think my subscription should be honoured.

simoncasey

Quote from: hutch on October 20, 2015, 05:24:37 PM
I am one year into a four year subscription. I paid $140 it. Seeing as IceTV is still IceTV (resurrected), I think my subscription should be honoured.

It won't be. You need to claim what you have lost as a creditor.