Skippa Pre-Order

[csutak40]

If we ignore the various pre-shipping discounts, the RRP of Skippa (with lifetime Skippa and IceTV subscription) has not changed.

Oh, but it has  :) http://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/skippa/44/new-icetv-branded-pvr/3886/msg20930#msg20930  Originally, it was RRP $499

What has changed is the ability to get a Skippa without lifetime Skippa subscription or without both the lifetime Skippa and Lifetime IceTV subscription. If you are not interested in the Skippa function and already have an IceTV subscription then you may not need the lifetime subscription since the ordinary subscription included 10 devices (up from the previous 5).

Not sure about that.  I have a vague recollection that the Skippa is separate from your other devices

I just had another look at their ad and noticed an addition I haven't seen before:
*The period during which your SKIPPA is in active use connected to your IceTV account on our servers. 

Wonder what that means, translated from IceTV speak?

[csutak40]

And do those units feature ad-skip?  A valuable feature.

Well, that remains to be seen.  Even they aren't guaranteeing it to be perfect, so it may be more trouble than its worth.  I use VideoReDo to edit some of my recordings ATM, and it, too, has a capability to remove ads.  I found that correcting its mistakes is more of a pain than just removing them manually.

I would find being able to permanently remove unwanted parts of a recording (at the very least, the padding) a lot more valuable a feature

[IanL-S]

Not sure about that.  I have a vague recollection that the Skippa is separate from your other devices

I just had another look at their ad and noticed an addition I haven't seen before:
*The period during which your SKIPPA is in active use connected to your IceTV account on our servers. 

Wonder what that means, translated from IceTV speak?

On the first point. At one stage that appeared to be the case. However, if you have the max number of devices on your account already you cannot add a Skippa (Dave at IceTV tried to do this). The multi-device subscription does not expressly exclude the Skippa. I will get clarification on this issue and report back.

On the second point, I suspect it merely refers to the fact that in order for it to work the Skippa must regularly check in with the IceTV server (possibly for some sort of upgrade to the Skippa functionality).

Ian

Update: Just checked and you cannot but a Skippa without the lifetime IceTV subscription. Clearly I am have problems today!

[Likkie]

5 years (lifetime) of IceTV sub at discounted auto-renew prices is $395 don't forget to add that to the price of those other units.
And do those units feature ad-skip?  A valuable feature.

You do not have to go for the device specific 5 year lifetime subscription. I got a 4 year multi-device subscription about a year ago for $149 special price. There was a similar offer not long ago. At the time it covered up to 5 devices and was recently retrospectively changed to 10 devices. I have just under 4 years to go. So the value of included IceTV subscription can be minimal for some users. The value of the included Skippa subscription depends on how you use the device. While I am sure many users will find it great, it is not essential for my viewing habits ... commercial TV, what is that?

The subscription I was referring to is the multi device sub and the price quoted was the ordinary price discounted for having auto-renew not a special deal like the 4 year one.


The point I was trying to make is that IceTV are doing themselves out of business by selling lifetime and heavily discounted subs.
 
At the time they sold the 4 year Subs for $149 I bought one too.  They must have needed a cash injection which they would have gotten but the downside is that for the next four years all of those people are now going to be paying no annual sub fees.


What is going to sustain them as a business if they keep pre-selling their product at a discount and forgoing the trailing revenue? I wonder how many of IceTV's customers took up that offer are now effectively dead weight for the next 3+ years. How do they pay wages and continue to offer the service?

[IanL-S]

5 years (lifetime) of IceTV sub at discounted auto-renew prices is $395 don't forget to add that to the price of those other units.
And do those units feature ad-skip?  A valuable feature.

You do not have to go for the device specific 5 year lifetime subscription. I got a 4 year multi-device subscription about a year ago for $149 special price. There was a similar offer not long ago. At the time it covered up to 5 devices and was recently retrospectively changed to 10 devices. I have just under 4 years to go. So the value of included IceTV subscription can be minimal for some users. The value of the included Skippa subscription depends on how you use the device. While I am sure many users will find it great, it is not essential for my viewing habits ... commercial TV, what is that?

The subscription I was referring to is the multi device sub and the price quoted was the ordinary price discounted for having auto-renew not a special deal like the 4 year one.

The point I was trying to make is that IceTV are doing themselves out of business by selling lifetime and heavily discounted subs.
 
At the time they sold the 4 year Subs for $149 I bought one too.  They must have needed a cash injection which they would have gotten but the downside is that for the next four years all of those people are now going to be paying no annual sub fees.

What is going to sustain them as a business if they keep pre-selling their product at a discount and forgoing the trailing revenue? I wonder how many of IceTV's customers took up that offer and there are now effectively dead weight for the next 3+ years. How do they pay wages and continue to offer the service?

Thanks for the clarification. You are making an important observation. IceTV have been periodically offering heavily discounted subscriptions since 2008 or earlier. Since first subscribing to IceTV (early Jan 2006) I have only paid "full price" for the first 2 years, since then I have taken advantage of four 1 year subs at $49 and one 4 year sub for $149. The full rate seems to have been $99 a year since 2006. Currently IceTV are offering 1 year for $99 and 5 years for $249 [works out at $49.80 a year ignoring time-value of money] (see attachment). These prices are not dependent on selecting auto-renew. Along the way I also got 12 month bonus subscription when I purchased a TRF2400, plus 4 x Topfield 3 months bonus membership.

The sustainability of heavy discounts is difficult to judge. Often they are limited to the first X purchases. So, it is difficult to work out how much those special discount cannibalise ordinary renewals. I suspect that the cost structure of IceTV is one where the variable costs of each subscription are relatively small, with the non-variable costs making up a substantial proportion of the total costs. But I could be wrong about this. If so these special deals may still result in the 'real value' of the resulting incremental cash flows being positive. (I will not get into the complexities of discounted cash flow analysis as it will confuse everyone ... including me.)

Ian

[zoszos68]

I just got an email regarding my previous enquiry about Skippa and was I satisfied with their support.
Well I told them them how I felt and got this reply almost instantly.

"Hi Kevin,

Thank you for contacting IceTV Customer Service.

Leon would have believed that your Skippa was in the first small batch that arrived 2 weeks ago. Sorry about that.

Your Skippa order is in the 1st big shipment of Skippas which finally(!) left the factory last Monday and they arrived at Sydney airport today. Depending how soon they can be unloaded, clear Australian customs and get delivered to the Sydney warehouse some may be posted to customers today. Otherwise this whole shipment will be posted to customers on Monday.

You will receive an email with an Australia Post tracking number when your order is dispatched.

Best Regards,

Dave
IceTV Support Team"

Kevin

[FMB]

I wonder what their definition of a 'big shipment' is?

[gas667]

I wonder what their definition of a 'big shipment' is?

I have just sent a question to Support asking that exact question. Will post if I find out.

[IanL-S]

I wonder what their definition of a 'big shipment' is?

Hopefully it would include all of those who ordered as part of the 'first 1000' promotion.

Ian

[IanL-S]

I just got an email regarding my previous enquiry about Skippa and was I satisfied with their support.
Well I told them them how I felt and got this reply almost instantly.

"Hi Kevin,

Thank you for contacting IceTV Customer Service.

Leon would have believed that your Skippa was in the first small batch that arrived 2 weeks ago. Sorry about that.

Your Skippa order is in the 1st big shipment of Skippas which finally(!) left the factory last Monday and they arrived at Sydney airport today. Depending how soon they can be unloaded, clear Australian customs and get delivered to the Sydney warehouse some may be posted to customers today. Otherwise this whole shipment will be posted to customers on Monday.

You will receive an email with an Australia Post tracking number when your order is dispatched.

Best Regards,

Dave
IceTV Support Team"

Kevin

If we assume today means Friday (as Kevin just got the email), it would appear that the earlier statement on the Forum by Dave that they arrived yesterday was erroneous. [editorial note update: This may not be the case, see extract below.] Either that or Dave wrote today when he meant yesterday.

Update: Dave's posting yesterday in fact said:
.... The first big shipment of Skippas left the factory on Monday and is expected to arrive at the Sydney warehouse today, tomorrow, or Monday and be posted ASAP. All of the remainder of the Skippas are only 1 week behind this batch. [emphasis added]

So it may be that they had not in fact arrived in Australia, but it was possible they would arrive and get to the warehouse yesterday. I am not convinced that it would be advisable to say this if they had not in fact arrived in Australia.

Ian

[JPP]

Thanks for the clarification. You are making an important observation. IceTV have been periodically offering heavily discounted subscriptions since 2008 or earlier. Since first subscribing to IceTV (early Jan 2006) I have only paid "full price" for the first 2 years, since then I have taken advantage of four 1 year subs at $49 and one 4 year sub for $149. The full rate seems to have been $99 a year since 2006. Currently IceTV are offering 1 year for $99 and 5 years for $249 [works out at $49.80 a year ignoring time-value of money] (see attachment). These prices are not dependent on selecting auto-renew. Along the way I also got 12 month bonus subscription when I purchased a TRF2400, plus 4 x Topfield 3 months bonus membership.

The sustainability of heavy discounts is difficult to judge. Often they are limited to the first X purchases. So, it is difficult to work out how much those special discount cannibalise ordinary renewals. I suspect that the cost structure of IceTV is one where the variable costs of each subscription are relatively small, with the non-variable costs making up a substantial proportion of the total costs. But I could be wrong about this. If so these special deals may still result in the 'real value' of the resulting incremental cash flows being positive. (I will not get into the complexities of discounted cash flow analysis as it will confuse everyone ... including me.)

Ian

In all of this, don't forget that the true cost of a Skippa to ICETV is around $150 or less (viz the Altec 9600 which is selling for less than $140 atm), so that leaves around $350 at the minimum to cover the 5 years or so of the expected life/usefulness of a Skippa, i.e. around $70 per year for the ICETV sub which is more than the often discounted $49 per year rate. True, this margin also has to cover the R&D spent on developing the Skippa.

Secondly, and I've made this point before, they can't really sell a Skippa without an included ICETV sub - even if they made FTA EPG available on the unit ala the Altec 9600 - after all, they make the claim time and time again that you can't rely on the accuracy of FTA EPG. Selling it without an included ICETV EPG is not a viable commercial option - as I said earlier, they are out to get the TiVo customers who are facing a dying machine and possibly EPG service as well. EPG is a FREE service for the TiVo - trying to get TiVo customers to now pay for an EPG service would not be well received to say the least.

[IanL-S]

Phil, there are two versions of the 9600, the 9600t (3 turner, 6 recordings) and the 9600q (2 tuner, 4 recordings). Please confirm which model your price is for.

If the speculation that the Skippa OEM is Altech (given the quantities that Heinz says the OEM makes this is probable) is correct, then a comparison with the street price of the 9600t would be useful. The cost of the units to IceTV (ignoring firmware costs which may or may not be meaningfully related to the number of units produce) will be significantly less that the street price of the 9600t.

Ian

[JPP]

Phil, there are two versions of the 9600, the 9600t (3 turner, 6 recordings) and the 9600q (2 tuner, 4 recordings). Please confirm which model your price is for.

Ian

The 9600t which has been selling through various channels as low as $139. This is probably pretty close to the cost of the machine so I used this price as a guestimate of the 1000+ unit cost of the Skippa.

ICETV would have had little hardware R&D as the design is based on the 9600t. I don't know if the firmware mods/upgrades have been done by ICETV themselves or through Altec, but the cost would not have been that prohibitive.

[IanL-S]

Phil, there are two versions of the 9600, the 9600t (3 turner, 6 recordings) and the 9600q (2 tuner, 4 recordings). Please confirm which model your price is for.

Ian

The 9600t which has been selling through various channels as low as $139. This is probably pretty close to the cost of the machine so I used this price as a guestimate of the 1000+ unit cost of the Skippa.

ICETV would have had little hardware R&D as the design is based on the 9600t. I don't know if the firmware mods/upgrades have been done by ICETV themselves or through Altec, but the cost would not have been that prohibitive.

Thanks for the clarification Phil. You are obviously better an sussing out prices than I am. I do remember seeing the 9600t well under $200 (but more than $150) at Dick Smith on-line shop.

Ian

[warkus]

Dick smith often discount the 9600t to around $160 ish approx, and then if they have their 30% off online sales as well it brings it down again, that's how I got mine for $138.00

It was definitely confirmed that UEC are the OEM, but For price comparison, note that the SKIPPA has a faster CPU and WIFI which the 9600t doesn't so that may add a little to the production cost I guess.


Mark