Author Topic: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region  (Read 3583 times)

Offline raymondjpg

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Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« on: December 04, 2009, 08:29:54 AM »
I don't think this is a problem peculiar to my PVR.

WIN ACT region (WIN, WIN HD and GO!) date and time stamp are currently incorrect. Ice EPG is showing data for Wednesday 2 December, as at 8.22 am Friday 4 December.

My PVR picks up its time from the EPG. Unfortunately my PVR was preset to WIN last night. Three scheduled recordings (one on WIN, two on SBS) for Thursday 3 December did not start and record. My conclusion is that because the PVR was preset to WIN, the machine was under the mistaken impression that the due time for recording had not yet arrived.

I haven't seen this before i.e. Ice guide showing different dates for different channels.

An Ice server problem?
Topfield TF7100HDPVRt, Beyonwiz DP-P2, Beyonwiz T2, Beyonwiz U4, Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2200, Hauppauge WinTV-MiniStick 01240, Hauppauge WinTV-dualHD (x2)

Offline tonymy01

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 09:04:02 AM »
ICE doesn't send the date, the broadcaster does.   ICE sends EPG info with GMT timestamps.   For you to view those on the PVR, the PVR adds what it thinks is your GMT offset (i.e. 11hours in daylight savings time), typically at "display" time, and you get your EPG displayed to you in local time.

So to just get this clear in your head, EIT is one thing (EPG) sent from the broadcaster, but there is also TDT & TOT tables sent.   TDT=time & date tables (which are in GMT also) and TOT=Time offset table, which is a table of what your local offset should be from GMT (and the next date that the offset changes, i.e effectively accommodates daylight savings).    Some (many?) PVRs don't use the TOT tables, they use a setup number in the PVR menu for GMT offset.

All ICE software /settings does in a PVR is block the broadcaster EIT (i.e. EPG) and allow this to be loaded up from files on the HDD or an internet connection to ICE instead.

If you have a Topfield, and your broadcaster is sending a very incorrect timestamp, you are going to have a bit of a problem.
Why? Read on-:
1. If you run AUTO time, the PVR gets its time from the broadcaster, and then adds the menu setup GMT offset.   So if you surf to the dodgy channel, within 30secs your PVR will have the wrong time.

2. If you run MANUAL time, the PVR only uses its internal clock, so the dodgy timestamp won't kill your PVR clock... however, here is the catch.   Stupid Topfield decided not to provide a menu option for GMT offset when you use manual time.   So how does your PVR know what to add to the EIT data to display it to you in local time?   The broadcaster timestamp... ouch.    So the PVR subtracts the broadcaster timestamp still from your safe manual time, and obtains a GMT offset based on that maths, adds it to the EIT tables for display to you (so only adds it for display, it doesn't add and store it).    This is why with a Topfield you have the EPG "jittering around" a bit when you channel surf, as they don't even round off the GMT offset calculation to the nearest 30mins!   So if your front panel clock is out by,  say, 1minute, all your EPG will be out by 1minute.   If your front panel clock is perfect, but the broadcaster is out by 10hours (because their work experience kid put the localtime instead of GMT time into the TDT setting in their equipment) then your EPG will be out by 10hours!!

The good thing about point 2 is that at least your timers will fire properly at approx the right time, if you used ICE to set your timers.   If you used your display EPG to set the timers, then of course their start date/time is going to be wrong.   There is a firmware patch mod for the 5K to support channel surfing the EPG without your PIG changing channels (picture in graphic).    If you use this strategy, you could ensure you are on a good channel (not the dodgy Win) before you open the GUIDE to set timers.     

I fixed this issue with 5Ks with the EPG_uploader TAP by blocking the PVR calculation when running manual time and then plonking in a TAP setup offset instead.    But if you have a 7K (not sure about the 2400 series), or don't run EPG_uploader in a 5K, you are at the mercy of the broadcasters whatever time/date setting you have in the PVR!!    You should be hassling Topfield to get their code for MANUAL clock a bit better, to support a proper offset like AUTO time users get.   Then both your front panel clock is safe (i.e. the main PVR clock) and the display of the EPG will be accurate.    If enough people hassle the hell out of topfield then they surely should look at this problem.

Regards
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 09:12:37 AM by tonymy01 »
Regards
Tony

Beyonwiz DP-S1 & Topfield 5K (using PerlTGD to upload ICE EPG/timers for the 5K, normal ICE interactive for the Wiz).

Offline raymondjpg

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 09:34:25 AM »
If you have a Topfield, and your broadcaster is sending a very incorrect timestamp, you are going to have a bit of a problem.
Thanks for that.

While I try to get my head around everything that you have said, the FTA EPG for the WIN channels is definitely *also* giving the incorrect date/time stamp.

Thus it appears that the PVR (as you rightly say, a Topfield) is picking up the date/time from the broadcaster, and the ICE EPG has nothing to do with it.

This is not a time offset problem. The date/time is two days out.

Hopefully Channel 9 will sort this out soon. It is the first time that I have fallen foul of the problem in over a year of using this PVR. As it is a Topfield 7100, no TAP solution that I am aware of.

Regards

Offline tonymy01

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 10:01:18 AM »
It is a time offset problem... just a very *big* offset :-)

While I try to get my head around everything that you have said, the FTA EPG for the WIN channels is definitely *also* giving the incorrect date/time stamp.
 This is because the EPG is sent with the correct GMT date/time for each EPG entry, no issues there.   EIT is sent and stored as GMT.   ICE does it this way, the technical standards state it should be this way.    The issue is your broadcaster TDT is stuffed, which has nothing to do with EPG (it is just that the first you witness of this is your EPG looks wrong, because of the stupid Topfield)... also when you channel surf the EPG, stupid Topfield force your PVR to change channels.   Try viewing one channel above/below Nein/Win, hit the red button to view the multi-channel mode, and notice the EPG looks correct for Win... just don't try to highlight the Nein/Win entry and press info, as the stupid Topfield forces the channel change which forces the TDT to be read which forces the dumb offset calculation (I presume you are running manual time?  Auto time doesn't have the stupid offset calculation but you have another issue of your PVR date/time suddenly jumping, which is a tad worse than Win looking wrong!)

Ok, just to clarify one or two more things (now I know what PVR model you have), and a mistake I probably made about ICE timers in my text above.

The ICE EPG and I believe timers are sent in GMT time.    So, if you run AUTO time, the timers will be set for the correct time (as AUTO time uses your menu setup GMT offset to both add to the EPG for display, and add to the timer timestamps for storage of the timers) and EPG will display for the correct time, however of course channel surfing to the dodgy channel will cause your PVR clock to shift (after about 30secs for the 5K, dunno for the 7100).  
If you run MANUAL time, then your PVR clock will be fine, but anything that requires adding offsets won't be fine as the Topfield uses stupid maths to calculate your GMT offset (by subtracting the broadcaster so-called GMT date/timestamp from your PVR manually setup date/timestamp).   Thus if you are on the dodgy channel when your timers come in from ICE, they will likely end up at the wrong date/time!!   (Timers are stored in the PVR in localtime, so the PVR ICE mode will convert the timers sent by ICE to localtime).    So your timers, if they are already in the PVR, will be ok, but any new ones might end up at the wrong time if you are on the dodgy channel at the time and running MANUAL time.

When I say timestamp, I mean date/time btw.

So, even though you think you are safe from dodgy broadcasters by running manual time, due to the stupidity of the algorithm Topfield uses for determining the PVR GMT offset, you will still end up with big troubles!

Regards
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 10:15:24 AM by tonymy01 »

Offline raymondjpg

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 10:56:45 AM »
It is a time offset problem... just a very *big* offset :-)
Granted, but not the daylight savings offset I *thought* you were referring to. On a closer read of your original post I see what you were driving at (I think).
If you run MANUAL time, then your PVR clock will be fine.
This is the problem! The first thing I tried was to set the 7100 to manual time, but all I could do was to time shift up or down a minute. Date was unchangeable.

This was trying to restore the date/time as set by Channel 9. Maybe I would have been successful if I had (minute by minute) pushed the time out to a correct date/time. Instead I will try and reset to manual after surfing to a channel with correct date/time, and see if that "sticks" when the PVR is shifted to a Channel 9 program.

Maybe the best thing to do is ignore the problem until Channel 9 fixes it, by (for now) presetting the PVR to an ABC channel (for example) where hopefully they are less likely to muck it up. This could still lead to problems if (for example) I was trying to record two channel 9 programs concurrently, thus committing both tuners (and the PVR) to an incorrect date/time stamp and potential to compromise any other (later) scheduled recordings.

N.B. I see now that this post should probably be in "Interactive General". Maybe mods can move it. The generic nature of the Channel 9 timestamp may affect other PVRs, so "Interactive on Topfield TF7100HDPVRt" may be less appropriate.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 11:06:37 AM by raymondjpg »

Offline tonymy01

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2009, 11:10:30 AM »
Granted, but not the daylight savings offset I *thought* you were referring to. On a closer read of your original post I see what you were driving at (I think).
Hehe.  I should probably create a diagram one day to explain it better, I have explained this issue so many times now.   I understand it as I have worked into the nuts/bolts of this for EPG_uploader for the 5K.

Basically, the Topfield doesn't use the TOT table (GMT offset).   So to calculate an offset in manual time, it subracts your PVR date/time that your PVR is set to, from the broadcaster date/time sent in the TDT.    Even though this obtains a "GMT offset", it uses the full date/time of PVR and broadcaster to create what seems like something that should simply be a menu option, like what you get when you use AUTO time.

Regards


Offline raymondjpg

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Re: Ice EPG Date/Time out - WIN ACT Region
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 11:21:48 AM »
Basically, the Topfield doesn't use the TOT table (GMT offset).   So to calculate an offset in manual time, it subracts your PVR date/time that your PVR is set to, from the broadcaster date/time sent in the TDT.
Even if I don't completely (!) understand what you are saying, I think I have worked out from your penultimate post that it is not worth trying to reset the 7100 to manual time as I would most probably just get more problems.

Over to Channel 9 (are you listening??).


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